TT in small blind with lotsa limpers

MoonOrb · #1 10-08-2007, 11:31 PM

Suppose you hold TT in the SB and six players have limped in ahead of you.

Is the best play here to raise or to complete the small blind?

I ran this through pokerstove briefly and did my best to approximate the range of hands for villains that amounted to six calls and no raises. The result was that the tens had equity of about 19.5% and all other hands had equity of between 10-12%.

That seems like a big enough equity edge that a raise is merited, even though it's likely that hero loses without catching a ten. (Hero could lose even if he does catch the ten, of course). With seven (counting the big blind) other hands playing, the chances of tens holding up as top pair or making the winning straight or flush have to be awfully slim, right?

One disadvantage of raising here might be that if the flop does come with 3 cards under ten, it will be awfully tough to force overcards to fold with a flop bet or check raise.

With 8 BB in the pot prior to the flop, any hand with a draw will get the proper odds to call.

But what I'm thinking is that it's better to push the edge with a pre flop raise rather than worry about how to protect the hand as top pair in the relatively unlikely event that 3 undercards flop.

Is this thinking sound? Or can anyone recommend a more helpful way to analyze this?

Smurph64 · #2 10-08-2007, 11:39 PM

19.5 against how many opponents? If its 6 its not really a raise is it? I would need everyone to call to make this work.

Position really is such that I would rather see the flop first to decide the best course of action here so I would check it.

Any non face flop and I donk it. That is much more likely to be profitable than a raise.

MoonOrb · #3 10-08-2007, 11:52 PM

The 19.5 was against 7 other players: I presumed the BB would just check for the sake of the example.

I ran it again for against 5 villains (assuming a fold out of the BB and one other; I frankly don't see limpers who have invested one bet folding to one more here in what is shaping up to be a big pot).

This drove the TT equity up to about 30%. I tried it again with 6 villains, and equity increased only to roughly 23%. Wouldn't it follow from this that raising is the right play, even if it induces one player to fold? Or does that ignore the potential bets that you'd earn from the folders on later streets?

Niediam · #4 10-09-2007, 01:11 AM

Standard play is raising 99+ here.

OziBattler · #5 10-09-2007, 01:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
19.5 against how many opponents? If its 6 its not really a raise is it? I would need everyone to call to make this work

[/ QUOTE ]

Raisy Daisy. 6 limpers who will all call (except maybe BB) and Im raising because Im going to spike a set about 1 in 7 and when I spike my set Im going to win a big pot especially if there is an overcard or two. If your feeling frisky you could raise ANY pair here as well as good speculative hands such as J10s.

caution: if you raise...dont spew postflop if you dont like the flop.

marchron · #6 10-09-2007, 02:19 AM

If there's six limpers to you in the small blind, you have enough set equity to raise ANY pocket pair, though I wouldn't recommend it for anything less than 88.

janne_oksanen · #7 10-09-2007, 02:27 AM

What do you do when you get a fair flop like 8s7s2d and you don't have a spade?

MoonOrb · #8 10-09-2007, 04:35 AM

I've been raising in these situations, thanks for all of the feedback.

If I got a flop like 8s,7s,2d and didn't have a spade, I'd check. It would probably mean giving up on the hand. If I could see the turn for 2 bets or fewer I would, but I'd probably be finished with the hand if I didn't close out the action. If the turn card didn't complete any of the apparent draws, I'd check and then check-raise when it got back to me.

But most likely case is=don't hit the set, I'm done with it.

Niediam · #9 10-09-2007, 08:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've been raising in these situations, thanks for all of the feedback.

If I got a flop like 8s,7s,2d and didn't have a spade, I'd check. It would probably mean giving up on the hand. If I could see the turn for 2 bets or fewer I would, but I'd probably be finished with the hand if I didn't close out the action. If the turn card didn't complete any of the apparent draws, I'd check and then check-raise when it got back to me.

But most likely case is=don't hit the set, I'm done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. No offense but this is seriously VERY VERY VERY BAD. You have an overpair in a large pot. Bet & raise for value/protection.

KitCloudkicker · #10 10-09-2007, 09:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I've been raising in these situations, thanks for all of the feedback.

If I got a flop like 8s,7s,2d and didn't have a spade, I'd check. It would probably mean giving up on the hand. If I could see the turn for 2 bets or fewer I would, but I'd probably be finished with the hand if I didn't close out the action. If the turn card didn't complete any of the apparent draws, I'd check and then check-raise when it got back to me.

But most likely case is=don't hit the set, I'm done with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the worst, most weak-tight advice i've ever seen.

if you want to looks for places to fold an overpair on the flop i suggest you either change your playing style or quit playing limit poker.