Donkbet on turn, TPGK

One Outer · #1 10-04-2007, 05:29 PM

Villain in this hand is playing lots of hands. I've seen him donk into someone like this once before but his hand didn't show down. Button is pretty laggy. Loves to pump draws on the flop.

Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG folds, UTG+1 (Villain) limps, EMP limps, 2 folds, Hero raises, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Villain and EMP call

Flop (5 handed, 10.5 sb): J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks,UTG+1 checks, EMP checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Villain calls, EMP folds, Hero threebets, Button calls, Villain calls

Turn (3 handed, 9.5 BB):

7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG+1 bets, Hero...

I don't like any of my options. Calling seems the most correct thing to do. I hate that I still have a laggy Button behind me. If button raises and Villain just calls what's the plan? If button just calls I think I should call a blank river.

Should I ever raise the turn here (spewy)? Folding seems out of the question but I think I'm behind Villain and a substantial portion of his range is (I think) a straight.

egocidal · #2 10-04-2007, 05:50 PM

I like the flop 3 bet. If you read that button is just pumping 4 spades than go for it, but realize that with that many callers behind you are looking at a lot of 8x Jx 6x hands. So when the turn comes and UTG+1 leads into you my read would be a crappy two pair like J7, 78, etc. The problem is I have no other response other than fold if that read is correct, it seems like you would be laying down to monsters under the bed though...

Scarmiglio · #3 10-04-2007, 06:21 PM

On the turn calling is the only play. He could be donking a weaker jack or a hand with a pair that picked up a straight draw like 98. If he has 2 pairs you have odds to catch a better two pair unless he has exactly J8. I think the straight is unlikely as he would almost certainly c/r you. If Button raises behind I can probably find a fold, but I don't think button raises here most of the time. According to your OP the button would have raised on the flop with a straight or flush draw, so I'm putting him on a hand like A8 or possibly a weak jack. You said he was laggy so he would stick around with a hand like that. Remember - if we raise the turn and we're behind the donk bettor we're charging ourselves to draw. Folding out the button doesn't help us most of the time (unless he has A8 and we fold him and catch an 8 on the river to win) and keeping him in actually improves our odds to draw to our outs.

kyzerjose · #4 10-05-2007, 09:02 AM

Doesn't the villain calling 2 cold OOP on the flop, then donking the turn, bother anyone?
He can be limping a bunch of hands that we're drawing either very thin, or dead, to.
The only hand I can see the villain drawing to after calling 2 on the flop is some sort of T9. If so, he's going to lead the turn if he's not in spades, not c/r.
Yeah, maybe it's MUBS thinking but I can find a fold here. If you want to try and see the river, call and fold to a button raise.

One Outer · #5 10-05-2007, 11:16 AM

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Doesn't the villain calling 2 cold OOP on the flop, then donking the turn, bother anyone?

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That was exactly what was getting me. It's such a weird line that I can't see it being anything but an powerful hand that either is the straight or is vulnerable to the straight. At the time it looked to me like a donk deciding to wake up with his set or two pair because OMG there's a straight out there now!

The main problem still, and the main reason that I posted the hand, is that I still have the LAG to act behind me. Heads up or against a passive button I think there is value in calling but I'm terrified that it's going to get raised in back while I'm drawing.

kyzerjose · #6 10-05-2007, 12:51 PM

The main problem still, and the main reason that I posted the hand, is that I still have the LAG to act behind me. Heads up or against a passive button I think there is value in calling but I'm terrified that it's going to get raised in back while I'm drawing.

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I suppose the villain could be squeezing you trying to get HU with the BTN but I don't think so. A real uncomfortable position to be in.

Another thing that comes to mind is even if the villain and BTN are drawing, you're all probably sharing outs and a chopped pot. The BTN isn't going to fold any reasonable draw if you raise the turn and the villain could make it 3 if you get him HU.

chesspain · #7 10-05-2007, 01:08 PM

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If he has 2 pairs you have odds to catch a better two pair unless he has exactly J8. I think the straight is unlikely as he would almost certainly c/r you.

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Since the LAG here often has a J, a flush draw, or even a K (e.g. KQ/K8s/etc.), we likely aren't drawing to five clean outs--assuming we aren't already drawing dead. Consequently, unless we have a very good read that the donk bettor isn't ahead of us, I want signficantly better than 10:1 to continue with this hand, especially with the LAG behind us.

Scarmiglio · #8 10-05-2007, 01:21 PM

You're neglecting the possibility that we're ahead right now. Maybe it's just a Commerce thing, but I see people donk top pair weak kicker on the turn all the time - especially when the board gets scary. I suppose this is very read dependant, but I think we're giving up value by mucking the turn just because of a donk bet. Also, calling 2 cold on the flop means very little in the live games I play. Top pair with ANY kicker does that all day long.

One Outer · #9 10-05-2007, 01:54 PM

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Maybe it's just a Commerce thing, but I see people donk top pair weak kicker on the turn all the time - especially when the board gets scary.

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Also, calling 2 cold on the flop means very little in the live games I play.

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I think it might just be a Commerce or west coast thing. In my experience at Canterbury this is a slowplayed set, two pair or the butt end of the straight way, way more often than a J.

Absolutely agree on the second point. He can be doing that with anything on the flop, which is one of the reasons I don't want to continue the hand; I have no idea where I'm at.

Scarmiglio · #10 10-05-2007, 02:00 PM

I think that folding because we don't know where we're at is giving the other players way too much credit - especially the lag on the button. He hasn't even done anything yet! That being said, if the donk bet almost certainly means two pair or better (95%+ of the time), I can see that a fold would make sense in this spot. I guess all the crazy asian and crazy armenian players out here have skewed my view of this type of situation.