JTs; party party party, party all the time

egocidal · #1 10-04-2007, 03:48 PM

This one is on one of my pages of notes from a week ago or so. HP 4/8 game.

Hero is in CO with JT[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]s. 3 calls, 2 folds, I call, button folds, SB raises, all call to late MP who 3 bets.

I cap.

Yay or nay and why.

KitCloudkicker · #2 10-04-2007, 03:58 PM

raise pf the first time.

cap is whatever. i doubt its -ev. depends if it gets people to fold (i doubt it). if everyone calls you probably have a slight eq edge.

profpeebody · #3 10-04-2007, 05:00 PM

make it 2bets when you come in

As it played out, I just call after MP 3bets. I think your hand plays well against the large field but I don't want to bloat the pot quite yet. If you flop a J or T without any draw, you may not be able to defend your hand if the pot is huge. Could be completely off here.

KitCloudkicker · #4 10-04-2007, 05:05 PM

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If you flop a J or T without any draw, you may not be able to defend your hand if the pot is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

it really makes no difference after it gets 3 bet, you cant defend it in either situation.

PF 3 bet or PF 4 bet = no one is folding.

Hyperrrprank · #5 10-04-2007, 05:37 PM

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raise pf the first time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes to this. Not only have we got enough people in to make this a reasonable play in terms of equity (I'd guess it is negative if no one else calls, but only just barely) it has the double added bonus of potentially buying us a free card.

One Outer · #6 10-04-2007, 05:38 PM

I agree with raising preflop the first time.

If you have an equity edge when you could have raised the first time then I like the flop cap. Not much has changed; we're still +EV.

profpeebody · #7 10-04-2007, 08:17 PM

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it really makes no difference after it gets 3 bet, you cant defend it in either situation.

PF 3 bet or PF 4 bet = no one is folding.

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There is a difference. 3bet makes 15sb pot. 4bet makes a 20sb pot.

If you flop a J or T, you can raise and make it unprofitable for a lone overcard to draw at a 15sb pot (really 18sb, someone's bet and your raise). With a 20sb pot, an opponent can cold-call profitably.

4bet preflop might be more profitable, but this is one argument for just calling it at 3bets.

Feel free to rip me if I am way off

egocidal · #8 10-04-2007, 09:03 PM

I capped in large part because I immediately regretted not raising first when it came to me. I figured that since everyone was still in the hand that was there before, why let it pass me by a second time?

Yepitis · #9 10-04-2007, 09:44 PM

Do we really get this kind of EV with a JTs?

Seems to me we put a lot in a pot and we still need a good flop and then it could just end up costing us more.

I would have a hard time calling the two bets and I think I play to many hands, heh.

Mook · #10 10-05-2007, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I capped in large part because I immediately regretted not raising first when it came to me. I figured that since everyone was still in the hand that was there before, why let it pass me by a second time?

[/ QUOTE ]
I play B&M exclusively and here's my take.

If you are the tightest person at a live SSHE table (which is the case pretty much always, at least for the average denizen of this board I would assume), you should almost never pass up an opportunity to raise / re-raise / gamboooool in general if it's even close to being +EV.

Play 22/16, ABC poker preflop in these games and some folks - definitely not all, but some - will eventually catch on. Limp-rerasing / limp-capping, on the other hand, is a prime gamboooolers' move, and it'll buy you more action on your monster hands than you'd ever deserve normally. "I gotta call this guy down, he capped it with jack-high an hour ago!"

So yes, my answer to your question is 'party til the money run out'. It's the same reason I'd have raised the first 3 limpers in this spot if I'd picked up 86s. Well, that and it's just fun. And who doesn't like a little entertainment when it's profitable? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Mook