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#1
10-03-2007, 03:05 PM
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What is the proper way to raise?
I played NL at the Wynn a few weeks ago and whenever I raised I would say "raise" then count out my chips in front of me and then either declare the value or push them a little forward signaling that my raise was complete. I played 33 hours, so I have a full rotation of dealers and this seemed to be acceptable.
I recently played at a boat in Indiana and their poker tables have one of those racetrack white lines in front of you. I stacked my chips behind the line and there's no room left between my chips and the line. So in indiana we get to the river and the player bets into me. I say "raise" and take a stack of chips in my hand. As I begin to count the chips to myself and contemplate how much to raise, I start to stack them infront of the white line. While about half of my chips are on the table and the other half are still in my hand, the player says "call." I look at him confused and I say to the dealer that i haven't finished my raised. The player said "whatever you have pass the line is your raise and i call it." the dealer and the table all agreed. I'm an online donk, so I guess I'm confused on the proper way to raise in live play. Is whatever crosses the line fair game whether it leaves the hand or not? 
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#3
10-03-2007, 03:10 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
Oh boy. Here we go.
Cliff's notes on the next 5 pages of thread: * You are correct. * Some casino's do things differently. Always familiarize yourself with house rules when playing in a new room.
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#4
10-03-2007, 03:18 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
[ QUOTE ]
Had you gone back to your stack to grab more chips at any point after you placed the initial chips in front of the white line? [/ QUOTE ] I didn't. after teh acton concluded I asked the dealer what if i wanted to get more chhips and he said that would constitute a string bet.
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#5
10-03-2007, 03:24 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
Here's what I do:
I say the word raise so that the dealer can hear me. I think and determine the total bet (even if I know, I always take a couple seconds), then state that number. Anything you do with handling chips can be construed as a bet if the angle shooter is determined enough, I don't give them that shot. Oh and the dealer is absolutely right - placing a bet out, then going back for more chips is the definition of string betting.
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#6
10-03-2007, 03:36 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and the dealer is absolutely right - placing a bet out, then going back for more chips is the definition of string betting.[ QUOTE ] Except thats not necessarily the case, What if he had left out the amount of the call and then came back to get more chips --- in many rooms this is a valid raisobviously in a room that requires you to leave out all chips that cross the line this could only be done if he brought out no mor ethan the exact amount of a call.
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#7
10-03-2007, 05:07 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
[ QUOTE ]
Is whatever crosses the line fair game whether it leaves the hand or not? [/ QUOTE ] At Foxwoods they consider any chips passing in front of your cards as a complete bet. I got warned twice last weekend when I brought chips forward (not near the "line") but past my cards. In both cases I checked - and was not trying to see what my opponent was doing, I just didn't read the board correctly. I have never seen it called though. And there is a regular there who routinely brings a handful of chips way past his cards and drops them two at a time - so you don't know if he is calling or raising until he brings his hand back. At Bay 101 a guy pulled that move on me and I thought he was raising, so I mucked before he drew his hand back. Then I saw the call... But it didn't matter because I had been bluffing and it was the river. Looks like the guy you were playing against used the letter of the law to take advantage.
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#8
10-03-2007, 05:34 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
From Robert's Rules:
[ QUOTE ] 6. At non-tournament play, a player who says "raise" is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player's hands come to rest outside the pot area. (This rule is used because no-limit play may require a large number of chips be put into the pot.) In tournament play, the TDA rules require that the player either use a verbal statement giving the amount of the raise or put the chips into the pot in a single motion, to avoid making a string-bet. [/ QUOTE ] Robert has recently added the requirement that player say raise to bring his rules in line with what is being done in modern poker rooms. Traditionally there was no requirement to state raise. Over the years I have noticed that over half the floorman that have a version of this in their rules (there is a version of this in every written rule book I have ever seen) are unaware that NL has different betting rules than limit. It is unclear if in the original TDA rules if they were unaware of the difference between limit and no limit (limit was the game of choice even in tournaments back then) or if they decided to use limit rules because most players were completely unfamiliar with NL.
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#9
10-03-2007, 05:42 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
[ QUOTE ]
Over the years I have noticed that over half the floorman that have a version of this in their rules ... are unaware that NL has different betting rules than limit. [/ QUOTE ] RR, if I recall correctly, the whole "betting line" concept is a limit concept carried over into NL. IMHO the metaphor doesn't seem to work as well over there, leading to situations like in the OP where it generates more confusion and opportunity to angleshoot than it clears up. Thoughts?
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#10
10-03-2007, 05:50 PM
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Re: What is the proper way to raise?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Over the years I have noticed that over half the floorman that have a version of this in their rules ... are unaware that NL has different betting rules than limit. [/ QUOTE ] RR, if I recall correctly, the whole "betting line" concept is a limit concept carried over into NL. IMHO the metaphor doesn't seem to work as well over there, leading to situations like in the OP where it generates more confusion and opportunity to angleshoot than it clears up. Thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] The betting line originated separately in two different markets. Tony Collins introduced it in Bilouxi as a betting line and CalOHSA required it to appear on poker tables in California. I prefer it not be used as a betting line but rather to tell players where to put their bet. I think using it as a betting line causes more problems than it fixes. In limit it would be ok, but I prefer the limit rule that if you bring chips forward it is a bet even if you don't cross the line. Maybe I should make a video and post it here. Anyone that says they like a betting line I ask them how many chips they would require me to put in the pot if Ihave a great big stack in front of me, pick some of it up, take it across the line, drop some chips, and then return the stack in my hand to my big stack without allowing anyone to count what was in my hand. FWIW I have met I think 2 people that understand poker rules and procedures that think a betting line is a good idea.
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