Go&Go or Push when Short Stacked

Acein8ter · #1 10-01-2007, 11:10 AM

Comments on when your short stacked, under 10bb's on pushing vs Go&GO?

I usually push with a hand like QQ in MP w/8bb's or less but a Go&Go may be a better play sometimes (?)

What criteria do you use when choosing between the two plays?

udbrky · #2 10-01-2007, 11:14 AM

Just shove.

Let's say blinds and antes. 8 player table, to make it easy.

BB+SB+antes = 2.5 BB preflop pot. You raise to 3BB, get one caller.

Postflop pot is 8.5 and you have 5BB left.

Never leave yourself less than a full pot sized bet for the next street. If you're going to, just shove. Any time you have less than 12 BB, shove. I even do it with 15, if I want to start the "I'm shoving a lot" image.

Sherman · #3 10-01-2007, 11:16 AM

The main criteria for me are as follows:

1) Will I be first to act on the flop?

2) Is my flop shove likely to be a bluff or a semi-bluff? Meaning I much prefer a Go n Go with high cards like QQ+,AJ+,KJ+,QJ.

3) Is there more value in using a go n go than in shoving? That is, is villain more likely to call my PF raise and then fold to the flop shove than if I just open shoved. And, when he calls my open shove my equity can't be too great.

This last part is more confusing, but basically you have to know that shoving PF has little to no FE and you have only marginal equity when you are called. So, you raise less knowing that you will pick up some FE on the flop and gain more chips in the long run that way.

Sherman

ssnyc · #4 10-01-2007, 11:16 AM

just push...when I'm that low I push both my marginal hands and my monsters (if I deceide to play the hand)...let em guess and you will get called light a lot anyway

ChipSpeak · #5 10-01-2007, 11:51 AM

I don't see anyone folding to this bet anymore. Unless you are against a known weak player (which is difficult as we are normally in early position for this) I tend to prefer the shove.

Acein8ter · #6 10-01-2007, 04:33 PM

In a tourney yesterday just before the bubble, I had QQ in MP w/about 8bb's. I pushed as usual and got called w/KJo. The flop were all cards below 9, but the turn was a K and I lost.

In this case, I could have made a PFR of 3x or 4x bb, then pushed flop and may have taken it down...

In general, you'll typically get 2 high cards calling you which will miss the flop 2/3 of the time. They may fold a missed flop to a SS'er push depending upon their stack size and looseness. They will just be calling another 4-5bb's though...

Situation dependent I guess...

levAA · #7 10-01-2007, 05:11 PM

don't get results orientated here - if you can bring all your chips in preflop with QQ against KJ you would do it everytime.

the main point is - which sherman already elaborated - will you get more value by a go'n'go. if you know you get called with 71% equity you can shove all day long.

Sherman · #8 10-01-2007, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
don't get results orientated here - if you can bring all your chips in preflop with QQ against KJ you would do it everytime.

the main point is - which sherman already elaborated - will you get more value by a go'n'go. if you know you get called with 71% equity you can shove all day long.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. With QQ, you want to shove when you know you will be called by worse hands. The only reason you might try a Go N Go with QQ is because you feel you have "too much" FE PF and would gain more EV by betting smaller PF and shoving the flop.

BarryLyndon · #9 10-01-2007, 05:24 PM

I had QQ in a very loose tournament in AC a few months ago. This tall guy that looked like Wilt Chamberlain and played like a $5 SNG regular limped every pot. The SB was talking more about how good he was than really paying attention. The blinds were 1500/3000, I had 40K. He limped UTG, SB completes, so like 9000 in the pot. I look down at QQ and push AI. Both players fold. I felt sick to my stomach for an hour later. Why?

Because I should have raised to ~14K and hoped UTG would call. That would leave me with like 27K, and a PSB on the flop. Honestly, it's making mistakes like THIS that cost me (and others) a final table more so than whether or not to push with A10 with an M of 7 with two tight players in front.

We overemphasize picking up 25% of your stack, when in certain spots, it would be a sin not to pick up a much larger percentage than that!

Barry

Acein8ter · #10 10-01-2007, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
don't get results orientated here - if you can bring all your chips in preflop with QQ against KJ you would do it everytime.

the main point is - which sherman already elaborated - will you get more value by a go'n'go. if you know you get called with 71% equity you can shove all day long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, your right... I only play 4-5 MTT's a week and dwell upon my plays when I'm not playing. I did place 2nd in a 90 player MMT that day so I shouldn't second guess myself...