Open Ended Straight Flush draw

[Sammo]

button with 8c7c raise 3x from button bb calls...flop 9c10cx
bb raises 3/4, do i raise or do i call to hope for the straight or the flush? about even stacks early in tournament

[vaNq]

+cEV = raise I guess?

[PantsOnFire]

My inclination is to raise. You are ahead of all hand but a set and even then it's close. A straight or flush card on the turn could shut down villain (one with a pair or even two pair) and you won't get any more out of him. And depending on the tourney, a lot of guys will get it all in with AT. I'd go all the way with this hand, even early.

And if a brick comes on the turn, you will go from ahead to behind.

[drzen]

For me, it depends whether I think I can get it all in.

[AaronBrown]

In the first place, this is not a great situation for you. You like open-ended straight flush draws in general, but think about what button could have (it does depend on the x, by the way). Sure there are 9 club outs, but low flushes can be dangerous. The three non-club 6's leave you pretty safe, but the three non-club J's are trouble if he has KQ. It's not likely that you'll get a straight or flush and lose, but it's even less likely that you'll get a straight or flush you can be really confident about. And, of course, if don't get the straight or flush you have almost no chance against any likely hand.

The main consideration is a call looks as if you're going for a straight or a flush, while a raise suggests a high pair or set. The nice thing about a raise is he might fold some good hands, and if he calls, he may continue to raise or call even if a straight or flush card comes up.

On the other hand, if you predictably raise with drawing hands and call with made hands, you lose any advantage of deception and also make negative EV bets.

Therefore, I think this decision comes down to the other player. You can try to take him strong or weak, both strategies are reasonable here.

[JOHNY CA$H]

Raise big, call a push.

[GeeBeeQED]

It would depend on how experienced the other player was. If he's a donk, I'm worried about losing all my chips to him on a draw, I'm probably just calling to see what comes on the turn. What is the point of moving all in here and busting yourself out if your hand does not come? It's early, you have to be there late to collect the dough. If I hit on the turn, I might play it like below or I might move all in. The donks are much more likely to call all in with lots of junk like top pair and overpair hands. It's my chance for his big mistake to benefit me rather than one of the other players later in the game.

I see lots of players looking for ways (or excuses) to get all in so they don't have to play a hand. I'd rather lean towards playing a hand out. There is no point in pushing an opponent out of a pot unless your on a bluff or trying to protect a middling hand from a draw. If I've got a big hand or a draw to one, I want to play the hand to the river for the maximum profit. Why run and hide behind an all-in wager at every +EV opportunity? I say if playing a hand out is greater +EV then the all in move is negative EV relative to ideal play. Moving all in to hide from playing a strong hand out is not aggresive play, it's weak play.

If I judge he is perceptive opponent then I might benefit from putting more chips in the pot. Here I would stongly lean towards raising him his exact raise amount back. If he's on a bluff or holds a weakish pair, he's folding, if he's got the set or 2 pair (which is exactly what I want him to have) he's going to be thinking he's got a fish on the line. He's going to be putting me on a range of hands like AA, KK, AK or some overpair to the board. He'll just call here and let me take off one card feeling comforable the flush and straight draw probably does not help me. After I've reraised him, he's very likely to check the turn regardless of what card it is. (I conceede about 20% chance here he will bet the turn card. If he does, calling to me is just an pure issue of pot odds with 1 card to come. He's probably not betting after being reraised without a big hand. However for the purpose of my argument we're going to assume he checks the turn wishing me to be continue building his pot. We'll, I'm going to disapoint him. If I hit, I'm betting about 2/3 of the pot up to about 2/5ths of his stack but I won't overbet the pot here. I want him to call, I want him to become pot committed if possible. If I miss, I check and see a free card. If the free card gives me the hand (or I made it on 4th), I bet it just as previously described leaning towards the high side of the bet amount and not betting less than 3/4 of the pot regardless.

I woulnd't move in on a good player with this made hand unless he was giving me very stong tells that he had a big hand from the beginning. If I felt he had a hand he'd go to the mat with, I might move in on the river. But, remember we're talking about a good player so I should never be that certain. I want to make what I can, the best I can, get on to the next hand.

I'm not saying I'd play the hand this way every time but I would most of the time although I would mix it up from time to time. I might not make the small reraise on the flop against a good player if he's seen me make that or similar plays before. However, it's the play I'd make most of the time in this situation. (early in tourny, lots of chips to play etc...)

A str8 flush draw is a draw to a big hand, I don't want to let it slip by me but I certainly don't want to go broke early in a tourny with it either.


Dave