Call or fold river re-raise with (AK)K88, flush on board

cjd · #1 09-22-2007, 05:05 PM

With the hand below, I think I was going to call Button's bet, but when SB called, figured I wasn't good - that I was looking at a flush or a full house.

But, hero is getting $11.70:$65.90, or about 1:6 odds. And if someone had two pair, river counterfeited it.

Absolute Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($28.85)
BB ($38)
UTG ($231.47)
UTG+1 ($94.15)
Hero ($103.50)
MP2 ($55.05)
CO ($82.93)
Button ($25.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.5, 1 fold, CO calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, SB calls $1.25, 1 fold.

Flop: ($6.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $4, CO folds, Button calls $4, SB calls $2.

Turn: ($18.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4.5, Button calls $4.50, SB calls $4.50.

River: ($32) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.5, Button raises to $15.2, SB calls $15.20, Hero ???.

Final Pot: $65.90

Leviathan101 · #2 09-22-2007, 05:14 PM

you need to raise more on hte flop, bet more on the turn, and fold to the river raise.

Raise more on the flop to charge draws and get value, bet more on turn for same reason. Honestly, I might check/fold the river, but definitely don't call the raise.

Also remember, odds are only defined in the chance you actually win the hand. You probably aren't going to win the hand 6:1, in all likelyhood its less.

kokiri · #3 09-22-2007, 05:31 PM

What are you trying to achieve with these weak-ass bets? I ask because I don't understand how you are playing this hand at all. Bet more to get value from worse hands and draws.

I fold, i don't expect to see a full house, but an 8 or a bizarre flush would not surprise me. You only have to be ahead 1 time in 5, but you have no idea what villains might hold given your weak line of betting.

Nogatsira · #4 09-22-2007, 05:36 PM

Lets replay the entire hand:

Preflop: Make it 4x BB to $2

Flop: DONT minreraise this little bet here. You want him to hit his flush or straight against you? Let him pay for it, make it $9 or something like that. You got TPTK and you want to bet for value and to protect your hand

Turn: You are giving them close to 8 to 1 odds to call, there are 2 flushdraws on board and straightdraws ...

River: After the button raises and the SB calls you don't win the hand anymore.

Tip: (not to disrespect you) I think you should move down in levels and start at NL10 and get the basics right. Learn to make good sized bets. You are going to lose alot of money playing deepstacked.

Also: this is the 6-max forum, full ring is somewhere else

zach383z · #5 09-22-2007, 05:37 PM

This hand was played horribly, everyone else hit it on the head, BET MORE!

I re pop this to $8 on the flop to punish draws and then lead for 2/3 pot on the turn with a safe card...

I fold the river the way you played this expecting some sort of strange suckout...

cjd · #6 09-22-2007, 08:13 PM

I appreciate all the comments, and wasn't offended by them. I know I need to adjust my game a lot. I'm multi-tabling about 6-10 tables, and only averaging about 1 BB/100 hands. Where I'm making money at is on bonus deposit dollars and rakeback. (BTW what's a good BB/100 hands for a 0.25/0.50NL player w/o bonus/rakeback?)

Why do I make those "weak-ass" bets? Sigh... I guess I'm frustrated with the "bet pot or 2/3 pot" rule making pots so large on hands like top pair top kicker -- combined with the frequency that someone thought playing 68 suited was a good idea preflop, landed two pair on the flop, and keeps calling me down without raising to show strength. For a while now, I've only been betting stronger than I did on this hand when I'm stronger than top pair top kicker, like set/flush/straight/boat.

I've been tryong to keep my decent hand pots small, and only going large with more monster hands. It has been profitable, but not by much.

Everyone's comments has really made me rethink that it would be more profitable to bet stronger, even though I'll have more frequent lost big pots.

As for this hand? Button had busted flush draw with Qd5d, and SB had AhKs. Calling would have been a split pot, but I agree with the way I bet that it was more likely I was behind on the river.

Nogatsira · #7 09-22-2007, 08:21 PM

cdarling, anything above 0BB/100 is a good winrate at any level. But anything above 10BB/100 isnt sustainable in the long run (and if it is, then that person should play wayyyy higher)

Do you have the pokerbook "no limit hold'em theory and practise?" by sklansky and miller? If you don't, then I suggest you buy it. It's really helpfull for your insight in the game and it will improve your game alot!

cjd · #8 09-22-2007, 08:25 PM

Nogatsira, I do have that S&M book. I'm pretty sure it's been a long time since I read it, so I'll probably re-read it soon and get a lot more out of it now than my first time through.

Nogatsira · #9 09-22-2007, 08:28 PM

Yeah you need some knowledge of the game and playing experience before that book really gets into you.
It will help you to think about your game, change your way of thinking. First time I read it I didn't really understand too much, but after reading the forums and playing more it all started to get to me.