T5s in SB

ginozola · #1 03-02-2006, 11:02 AM

Wondering what you guys make of this one? BB hadn't played too many hands when this hand came around, I had him as a typical player for the level, though he'd be very aggressive both preflop and on the flop itself. UTG+2 has so far played tight passive.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 raises, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

BB's call/reraise confused me slightly. Could I learn anything about his hand from it? At the time I read it as meaning a pair or Queens or 2P whilst I had UTG+2 on either a flush draw or a PP lower than TP.

JerBear77 · #2 03-02-2006, 11:08 AM

This is one of those Pot equity questions here.

You have plenty of equity to raise your flush draw here with 3 players in the hand already and judging by the action, most likely would have been a capped flop which makes it even better in that hand. There is also a slight chance if you spike a T you might be good here as well.

General rule, very general: w/ 3 or more players in the hand, raise your flush draws to get more money in the middle when you have the equity to continue.

Flop should have been:

Hero 3 bets.

Edit: with BB C/R there, i take it back, your T is not gOOt.

Didelo · #3 03-02-2006, 11:11 AM

Personally, without additional outs I'm not that keen on pumping this flush draw on the flop. We're 4-1 to hit our card on the turn and the non-nut OOP draw isn't really worth 9 outs IMO. Even with 6 players seeing the flop you can't be confident that 5 will call (which you need to make a raise +EV here). For me, this flop is a check and call if the odds back to me are right. Once you hit the flush, betting out is good; worrying about higher flushes is MUBS.

JerBear77 · #4 03-02-2006, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, without additional outs I'm not that keen on pumping this flush draw on the flop. We're 4-1 to hit our card on the turn and the non-nut OOP draw isn't really worth 9 outs IMO. Even with 6 players seeing the flop you can't be confident that 5 will call (which you need to make a raise +EV here). For me, this flop is a check and call if the odds back to me are right. Once you hit the flush, betting out is good; worrying about higher flushes is MUBS.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the time, he has only 3 players because the rest of the field folded.

bozlax · #5 03-02-2006, 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, without additional outs I'm not that keen on pumping this flush draw on the flop. We're 4-1 to hit our card on the turn and the non-nut OOP draw isn't really worth 9 outs IMO. Even with 6 players seeing the flop you can't be confident that 5 will call (which you need to make a raise +EV here). For me, this flop is a check and call if the odds back to me are right. Once you hit the flush, betting out is good; worrying about higher flushes is MUBS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Where to start. Ok, the obvious:

If you're not worrying about flush-over-flush, then why on Earth wouldn't you pump this draw? It doesn't matter if you hit on the turn, you're still going to call a bet to see the river, and (I can't believe I'm writing this for the 10 bazillionth time) you're better than 33% to hit your hand with 2 cards to come so you only need 2 opponents, not 5. (For what it's worth, even if you had a small stroke and decided that you'd fold if you didn't hit on the turn, you really only need 4 opponents to call based on implieds.)

Now, the less obvious:

I can see not 3-betting the flop yourself, since you don't want to face BB and UTG+2 with 2 cold, but once BB 3-bets and UTG+2 calls, you need to cap. You have the odds and worrying about flush over flush is MUBS (as you say).

Finally, the really obscure (this goes back to OP, not to Didelo's comments):

The only possible reason for not capping the flop is if you plan to c/r a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the turn, with perfect position on the last aggressor.

Didelo · #6 03-02-2006, 01:07 PM

There's a lot here I genuinely don't understand. Please indulge me.

1. Are you saying that you would bet any flop in 1st position with a baby flush draw as long as you thought you would get two callers? Does this not mean betting basically every flush draw you get?

2. Or are you saying that you pump every flush draw if you think you'll get two callers providing that you think you'll see the river? i.e. because you need 2 callers at 2-1 not 4 at 4-1.

3. If 2, why do you assume you'll see the river? Would you call the turn if you didn't have the odds? And if the board paired?

Also Boz, I think the tone of your reply was a bit unfair. You implied that I'd said something like 'I fink U shd PlAy Jack fiVe bcos U have A JacK n that might win loads ov $$$'. I might have got it a bit wrong but I don't think it warrants 'Wow' as if you're astonished by my stupidity.

I'm not an experienced player by any means, but this is the first time I've come across a point of view that suggests you should essentially always bet/raise a non-nut flush draw even if you're OOP and without additional outs. If that is accepted poker wisdom then, sincerely, please forgive my ignorance. If not, then I don't think I've been that dumb, have I?

sccrneo · #7 03-02-2006, 02:25 PM

3. There really isnt any situation that could occur on this board that you would not see the river except possibly if you check a non-diamond turn and its capped by time it gets back to you. But basically, you will have more than enough pot/implied odds to continue drawing to your flush if you miss on the turn. Even if a the board pairs on the turn, you can give anyone credit right away for having anything more than two pair/trips.

bozlax · #8 03-02-2006, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There's a lot here I genuinely don't understand. Please indulge me.

1. Are you saying that you would bet any flop in 1st position with a baby flush draw as long as you thought you would get two callers? Does this not mean betting basically every flush draw you get?

2. Or are you saying that you pump every flush draw if you think you'll get two callers providing that you think you'll see the river? i.e. because you need 2 callers at 2-1 not 4 at 4-1.

3. If 2, why do you assume you'll see the river? Would you call the turn if you didn't have the odds? And if the board paired?

Also Boz, I think the tone of your reply was a bit unfair. You implied that I'd said something like 'I fink U shd PlAy Jack fiVe bcos U have A JacK n that might win loads ov $$$'. I might have got it a bit wrong but I don't think it warrants 'Wow' as if you're astonished by my stupidity.

I'm not an experienced player by any means, but this is the first time I've come across a point of view that suggests you should essentially always bet/raise a non-nut flush draw even if you're OOP and without additional outs. If that is accepted poker wisdom then, sincerely, please forgive my ignorance. If not, then I don't think I've been that dumb, have I?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Unless I were pretty (95%) sure that a player near my immediate left would bet so I could c/r and trap the field for 2 bets, yes. And, it depends on the players involved and your position in the hand, but as a rule you should bet out a 4-flush on the flop when you have the opportunity unless you have a strong read that there's a better way to get more bets into the pot ON THE FLOP. I don't care if you think you can get more bets into the pot on the turn when you make your hand, I want as many bets going into the pot while I have an equity edge as possible.

(Note: with an aggro player to your left, it would be wrong to bet out because he's likely to raise and blow out the field. In that case you check, and raise when he bets and at least one other player calls.)

(Note 2: This also doesn't mean raise when the player on your immediate right bets, because then YOU'RE blowing out the field facing them with 2.)

2. & 3. You're seeing the river because you are always going to be getting correct odds to from the pot on the turn, provided you've pumped the pot on the flop.

Sorry about my tone. I actually, for some reason, think that you've been on the forum for a lot longer than you actually have. Did someone else use a siimilar avatar in the past year?

For all intents and purposes a two-card flush IS the nut flush. Yes, flush-over-flush happens, but it's rare and until you have an indication that you're up against a better flush or a boat, you need to press your edge.

Didelo · #9 03-02-2006, 06:38 PM

Interesting. Thanks. I will go away and think about this. The fact that experienced, knowledgeable people on this board take the time to help learners is the reason I love it. With regard to my avatar, it was a photo I took at a police recruiting station in Japan so it's completely original as far as I know. I suppose I do try to put across a dippy image at the table so maybe this comes across in the name and avatar.

RayClay · #10 03-02-2006, 07:34 PM

Maybe BB was just testing how serious UTG2 was or bluffing a little to protect his investment (his read on MP2 may have been TP as well). He may have been hoping that UTG2 would cap and knock you out of the hand. But the way the hand went, I would have played the same.