Big Pots = Big Leaks at 10NL... Help!

ev_slave · #1 09-17-2007, 01:09 PM

Hi guys. Everyone knows that it's not about the number of pots you rake, but the size of the pots you do rake. Lately, I've been doing a pretty good job at setting up and taking down medium to small pots, but it feels like everytime I end up in a big pot I'm a big loser. Some of those taking them down against me are not strong players, so I feel that although I'm being outplayed on some, it's definitely not all of them, so there's probably something wrong with how I'm approaching these pots and how I'm approaching the problem.

I've included six hands below: some I've won, some I've lost. The specific results are not important... the line I take in getting to the results is. Please take a look and tell me where I may be going wrong on some of these hands (a bet that is only called if beat... etc.) This is a major leak that works hard to trash my winrate - I've been breakeven and I think fixing this could bump me up to a 3PTBB/100 winner (or even more... losing 60 BBs when you can lose 15BB is a big difference in winrate!)

Thanks in advance. Without further ado...

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hand 1

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($0.45, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $0.1, Hero raises to $0.4, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1.65, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4, UTG folds, Hero raises all-in $9.5, BB calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($20.65, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $20.65)

Results:
Final pot: $20.65

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hand 2

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises to $0.5, Button raises to $1.35, 3 folds, Hero raises all-in $10.95, Button calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($22.15, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $22.15)

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($22.15, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $22.15)

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($22.15, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $22.15)

Results:
Final pot: $22.15

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hand 3

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
4 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $0.4, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($0.95, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.6, Button calls.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($2.15, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.5, Button calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($5.15, 2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button raises to $6, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $17.15

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hand 4

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero raises to $0.4, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($1.65, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.7, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, BB folds.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($3.05, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.7, Hero calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($6.45, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.5, CO raises all-in $10.7, Hero calls all-in $5.8.
Uncalled bets: $2.4 returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: $23.05

[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hand 5

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($0.85, 3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.5, BB raises to $2.5, Hero raises all-in $9.4, BB calls.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($19.65, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $19.65)

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($19.65, 2 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $19.65)

Results:
Final pot: $19.65

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hand 6

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($0.85, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.6, BB raises to $1.7, Hero calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($4.25, 2 players)
BB bets $2.8, Hero calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($9.85, 2 players)
BB is all-in $5.1, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: $20.05

mookboi · #2 09-17-2007, 01:26 PM

You need to include stack sizes for all these hands. Stack sizes are like the most important thing in any hand.

Hand 1: Limping is meh, raise preflop. I might consider just calling this flop, because it's a pretty safe flop for us and we aren't really afraid of the turn & want more money in pot. Turn good.

Hand 2: Meh, with QQ I usually call & CRAI a safe flop. But this is ok.

Hand 3: Depending on how much he got left, I might push him in, but most of the time call river. Other then that, standard. nh.

Hand 4: Bet more on flop. Like 1/2 at least. Fold turn. Lead for more on river. Or go for CRAI.

Hand 5: Hate this shove. He's not calling you with like KJ usually, so if he calls you are probably beat. It depends on player. I don't know if typical unknown would call this at 10NL with lesser hand. I just call his raise and probably c/f turn.

Hand 6: Same situation as hand 5 on flop, no? I probably fold turn, it completed lota draws + he's showing strength.

Overall, you seem to be doing pretty well. Work on bet sizing. Also please don't take above advice as final. Stack sizes are very important, I cannot stress this enough. Stack sizes of villain & your own should dictate how you play, as well as what hands you choose to play preflop.

ev_slave · #3 09-17-2007, 04:27 PM

Sorry... the converter is supposed to show stack sizes. I'll fix this this afternoon.

CobraGoat · #4 09-17-2007, 04:42 PM

wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too many hands posted at once.

hand 1- do not limp in MP w suited As, raise or fold, in that position, i fold. as played, felt that all day.

2- villain dependent. you are an early raiser of an UTG limper which is a fairly strong line. villain now RRs you? i think you could call and see a flop, fold or minR and fold to shove. shoving there gets called by KK, AA and AK, bad range for you.

3- fine but c/c the river to induce the bluff/keep pot smaller against better hands.

4- lol if you lost that hand to Js full or quads. again, get as much money in on that river as possible.

5- tough. AK w heart im a lot happier getting in than KQ. but im either folding or shoving.

6- fold the turn, quick, everydraw got there if you weren't beat already.

bsball8806 · #5 09-17-2007, 05:08 PM

1. hate the PF limp, please raise or fold. postflop is fine.
2. don't like the huge raise, we are only called by worse and occasionally AKs.
3. hand 3 is good.
4. I fold the turn (to what seems like Jx), but after that is fine
5. fold hand 5 to the c/r. its clear he wants to be AI on that flop, which means we beat nothing in his range.
6. i might call c/r on the flop, but i probably fold the turn and definitely fold the river.

overall, i'd give more credit to those who c/r you, especially since you don't have TK to go along with your top pair. it seems like you don't like letting go of good hands once you've committed money to the pot

anthb7210p · #6 09-17-2007, 05:17 PM

hand 5 and 6 look like huge spews. Your calling raises too lightly

OatmealJoe · #7 09-17-2007, 05:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hand 5 and 6 look like huge spews. Your calling raises too lightly

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. There are some things that could be done on the other hands, but 5 and 6 seem easy to get away from.

Jw513 · #8 09-17-2007, 05:26 PM

Hand 1: Don't limp preflop. Everything else looks good.
Hand 2: Don't like the all in, cuz we only beat jacks and we flip with AK. If they call you, you're prolly beat. Only do this if villain is short, like under 50 bb
Hand 3: Looks good. Looks like you lost on the river, but you can't fold here.
Hand 4: Fold the turn, but you got lucky, so ship it!
Hand 5: This probably would depend on opponent, but I think he might have a draw, so folding or shoving.
Hand 6: Fold on turn. It doesn't look like he's going to fold to a shove. If you can't fold turn, you HAVE to fold at the river. Theres no way you are winning.

onda_ogat · #9 09-17-2007, 05:27 PM

I have the exact same problem. Now I'm not even a break-even player, but I've given this some thoguht. I'll share that with you, and maybe we can get som more replies. I've summed it up to mostly two points: 1. I overbet, folding out everyone who's not got me beat allready. 2. I get excited when I have a big hand, and forget to think about how big my opponents hand might be.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Hand 1
At first I thought you won this one, but with the turn action BB is implying that he has a really strong hand. Since he came to life with the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he could have the 38FH.

Now if you wanted to protect your hand, keep this in mind: most draws, or made hands that are weaker than yours, are likely to have only 8-9 good outs. That's worse than 1/4.
So to protect your hand in HU, you'd only need to bet more than 1/2xpot.

UTG allready told us with his minraise on the flop he's got nothing, so he'll bulge. So what I would have done is, I'd only have bet something like 2/3 of pot (OK, you've got top kicker, so maybe a little more, but not over 1xpot-size). And when I got reraised, I'd have just called, and made a 1/2xPSB on the river, or maybe even check/fold to a shove, call a small bet with a lot less invested in the pot.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Hand 2
OK, I'm pretty certain the only hand that will ever reraise you preflop at 10NL with a full stack is AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. (Some short-stacks are an exception.) The hands that you'd fold out with a shove, you'd beat anyways most of the time. The hands that will call you have you beat. So I think you overbet this preflop, since you're posting it I guess he had AK. In which case you might well have won the hand with a pf call and a c-bet...

[img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] Hand 3
OK, he had 67 or 78. You dont know that untill he's reraised you. I think you played just like I would have tried to, you kept a weaker hand in the play, but you didnt give him the correct odds to continue playing. You've got to make the call and keep your fingers crossed, it's 3:14.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]Hand 4
I think you won this one. If he'd got the JJ he would have played it slow all the way 'till the river, or started betting right away at the flop. He thought the turn helped him, but if he has pocket 4's you just got to hand it to him. That wont happen anymore often than you can take. I can see why you bet the flop weak, but I think that's a mistake. Make a standard c-bet, dont tell them you're afraid of the overcard.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Hand 5
This is an overbet. You only got 1 pair. And if you want to bluff him of a better hand... well, you cant. Actually, it's an underbet, followed by an overbet. I think it's better to allways make the first flop bet 2/3 PSB, dont tell them you're afraid of the overcard/TK. Then just call the RR, it's still not a big pot and his draw might miss and you might get another king.

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Hand 6
I think you lost this one, and I think he thought you were a calling station. Most of the draws hit on the turn, som I'm telling myself I would have gotten out there (I might be lying). OK, the ai on the river could be an act of desperation, but not often at 10NL i'd say.

This may sound a little harsh, and like I said, I'm really not one to give you good advice on this. I'm just hoping someone more enlightened will point out to us both, in a way that I can understand, the error of our ways.

Have another day!

ev_slave · #10 09-18-2007, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Theres no way you are winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not this month. I agree that 6 is atrocious. This was at least partially tilt-induced. No excuse.

Anyway, thanks for all the input. Many made great points about how to think through these situations, and hopefully I'll be making more money than the ~3PTBB/100 that I get from rakeback soon.

Thanks again everyone.