i hate this spot

[lead24]

Whats the best line for this situation?

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $54.35
BB: $67.05
UTG: $85.10
CO: $81.95
BTN: $66.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.00</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $2.50

Flop: ($6.50) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.50</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $9.00</font>, Hero calls $4.50

Turn: ($24.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $10.00</font>, Hero folds
Uncalled bet of $10.00 returned to UTG

Pot Size: $24.50 ($1.20 Rake)

[Genz]

Why do you call his flop raise if you want to c/f on the blankest turn known to man?
What do you think he has? He could have a set or 2pair, but he could have draws and TP hands. I would assume that an unknown would reraise bigger pairs preflop.
So either commit and go broke with your pair, by betting 15 on the turn and calling a push or don't call the flop raise in the first place.

[BetweenTheLines]

I would check this turn only to checkraise allin,do you have some stats of this player? A loose passive or a solid player?

[Waingro]

I really hate calling the flop. Apart from the card that came off, 80% of the deck is bad for you on the turn, only the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is going to make you really happy. Either fold (reasonable) or shove.

[freeucm]

Yeah with JJ id think a fold on flop is probably best, I dont think we can just check/fold this flop. We have to bet post flop. You didnt play it all that bad.

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
I really hate calling the flop. Apart from the card that came off, 80% of the deck is bad for you on the turn, only the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is going to make you really happy. Either fold (reasonable) or shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right when you say that half the deck may be bad for you. But I don't like the conclusion that you draw. The fact that the turn will probably not too pretty for you doesn't meant that you should push immediately. But you should have a plan for the case that one of the safe cards comes off. A draw will have much less pot equity with only one card to come. So if you think that you don't have that much fold equity against a draw, it's often better to just call with the intention of getting it in on a blank turn.

[Waingro]

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I really hate calling the flop. Apart from the card that came off, 80% of the deck is bad for you on the turn, only the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is going to make you really happy. Either fold (reasonable) or shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right when you say that half the deck may be bad for you. But I don't like the conclusion that you draw. The fact that the turn will probably not too pretty for you doesn't meant that you should push immediately. But you should have a plan for the case that one of the safe cards comes off. A draw will have much less pot equity with only one card to come. So if you think that you don't have that much fold equity against a draw, it's often better to just call with the intention of getting it in on a blank turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that there is very very few blank turns, that means we are well on our way to make a mistake on the turn like folding the best hand in a big pot either because villain continues bluffing or because he keeps valuebetting worse. I might see your point if we thought that villains range is draws and monsters, but I think villains range is much much wider like top pair, a random shot at the pot with a stubborn AQ, a pair + gutshot etc etc. And we have no idea how villain plays all those hands and what he will put us on after we call. I think if we call flop and fold a non-blank turn we are bleeding money. I agree that this turn is a very very good candidate for a crai.

[quirkasaurus]

I'm thinking he flopped 2 pair with his pocket 67s...

[Genz]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking he flopped 2 pair with his pocket 67s...

[/ QUOTE ]
And that's the only credible hand for him? Start thinking in ranges.

[Genz]

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I really hate calling the flop. Apart from the card that came off, 80% of the deck is bad for you on the turn, only the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is going to make you really happy. Either fold (reasonable) or shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right when you say that half the deck may be bad for you. But I don't like the conclusion that you draw. The fact that the turn will probably not too pretty for you doesn't meant that you should push immediately. But you should have a plan for the case that one of the safe cards comes off. A draw will have much less pot equity with only one card to come. So if you think that you don't have that much fold equity against a draw, it's often better to just call with the intention of getting it in on a blank turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that there is very very few blank turns, that means we are well on our way to make a mistake on the turn like folding the best hand in a big pot either because villain continues bluffing or because he keeps valuebetting worse. I might see your point if we thought that villains range is draws and monsters, but I think villains range is much much wider like top pair, a random shot at the pot with a stubborn AQ, a pair + gutshot etc etc. And we have no idea how villain plays all those hands and what he will put us on after we call. I think if we call flop and fold a non-blank turn we are bleeding money. I agree that this turn is a very very good candidate for a crai.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I see your point. But without any reads we are turning our hand into a bluff if we push on this flop, because I don't assume that an unknown will stack off with a flush draw. FWIW I don't c/f the turn immediately when an overcard hits. This is pretty much a WA/WB situation plus the draw. So I like seeing a mostly cheap turn with the intention of commiting when a blank hits or representing a big pair when an overcard hits or giving up when the draw also hits. Like that I get to make my decision for my whole stack based on more information, might have additional fold equity (if he sucked out with his 6 overcard outs, oh well.) and price out a draw.