i think i'm turning into a calling station.

[DaycareInferno]

in today's online environment, the most en vogue style of play among non-fish players, basically goes something like this: "come in raising. bet agressively until you meet resistance, at which point, evaluate and abandon the hand or try to get all of your money in." that's a pretty gross oversimplification, and doesn't really do that style of play justice, but you guys get the idea, especially since so many of us play that way, or similarly.

as a result of all the agression out there, i'm contantly finding myself in situations with marginal hands where although betting and raising doesn't have much value, i can't really abandon my hand, because i'm still ahead of my opponent's betting range, which, at the time, is anything he may have entered the hand with.

i tried to find the best example hand that i could, and i think this one works well for what i'm getting at. if you hate this particular hand, that's fine. i don't really like it much myself. its not the point.

i have a large sample on villain in this hand. he is 25/21/6 with a 3bet% of 6, and a cbet% of 89.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $23.70
BB: $18.85
UTG: $44.30
Hero (MP): $48.75
CO: $24.50
BTN: $24.50

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.00</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $3.75</font>, 3 folds,

right off the bat, i'm in a tough spot. i have 3 choices:

1) 4bet: this seems like the worst option available. although i'm well ahead of a 6% range, villain is only in for a small portion of his stack, and i'd basically be offering up my entire stack to him. my raise wouldn't have any value, because even though i'm ahead more often than not, i gain much less from villain when i am ahead than he gains from me when he decides to continue with the hand, and i'm not so far ahead of his range that he folds enough to make up the difference.

2) fold: this is a pretty reasonable option, and one that i wouldn't argue with, at least not much. i am out of position with a hand that is unlikely to improve, and my implied odds are not nearly high enough to play for set. i will have to guess whether or not i am ahead post-flop, and i will rarely have the opportunity to bet for value beyond this point. the problem with this option is that while all of that may be true, i still know that i usually have the best hand here, so folding is really more of a play-it-safe/training wheels option that keeps variance down and avoids tough decisions, but probably isn't optimal.

3) call: this option makes sense, because i am ahead of my opponent's range, but at the same time, it already commits me to risking my entire stack based on some pretty sketchy guesswork. with a cbet% of 89 over a large sample, its reasonable to believe that villain will cbet pretty much any flop heads up. so, if i am still ahead of the same range on the flop, which i probably will be, i will have to remain in the hand again to justify the call that i'm making now.

i choose option 3

Hero calls $2.75

Flop: ($7.85) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)

that was a pretty good flop for me versus villain's range, but as is usually the case, again, there isn't a whole lot of value in leading out. when i am ahead, villain folds. when i am behind, villain raises and i fold. when we are close to even, villain raises and i fold. in this case, unlike preflop, its much more likely that betting out at least yields a profit, but since i match up so well against villain's betting range, which is the same as his original range, it seems like the inferior option. also, with 2 spades and Jhigh on the board, there are a lot of cards that could come on the turn that might make me inclined to set villain in, as opposed to the other way around, or abandoning my hand.

Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets $6.25</font>, Hero calls $6.25

Turn: ($20.35) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)

the turn is a total brick. with as weakly as i have played my hand, the unlikelyhood that the turn improved my hand, and the presence of a draw on board, i have to believe that my highly agressive opponent will see this as a good opportunity to fire a second shot at me, so, once again, i am in the same boat.

Hero checks, <font color="red">CO bets all-in for $14.50</font>, Hero calls $14.50

River: ($49.35) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $49.35 ($2.45 Rake)

again, i don't want to get too hung up on this particular hand. what i want to know is, how can i go about evaluating hands like this after they happen? its not like i really know whether or not a particular villain will bluff at me at any given point in time. when i'm right, i'm a genius. when i'm wrong, i'm a fish. i have a hard time deciding without the results, and a hard time not beating myself up over the times that i am a fish, even though i may have actually made the right play.

also, even if an exact + or - could be assigned to plays like this, these are the kind of hands that could have a dramatic impact on future hands that is hard to quantify. for instance, an agressive opponent will often start playing very straightforwardly against you after a calldown like this, because they will then view you as a station and not want to donk off a bunch of chips to you. this makes it very easy to steal pots from them in position for some time. on the other hand, if you call off your entire stack with a marginal hand and end up looking like a total moron, its hard not to steam a little bit, even if you know you had your reasons.

[DaycareInferno]

bump. that was too much typing to not at least get a couple of one line insults and an unfunny novelty picture from 2002.

[Perk76]

TL/DR

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just kidding. Problem with this is not so much this particular result. Just calling lets the flush hit as well as another overcard which makes any other bets suck and spewing money to that point. From the villan's perspective, it looks like your drawing so he will fire again on the river feeling like it will be successfull, which puts you in an awkward spot. If you had any real hand here, you would get busy with a raise at some point to stop the draws and protect your hand.

If you dont believe he has an overpair or a jack, get the money in on the flop while your hand is still good. I dont feel comfortable holding pocket tens and just keeping them as bluff catchers even against an aggressive opponent.

[Peter Harris]

either call pf and crai on flop, or fold.

I fold, with his stack.

[TheMayor]

[ QUOTE ]
either call pf and crai on flop, or fold.

I fold, with his stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you call pre flop what boards besides one like this with 2 unders are you crai on? Are you c/f if an ace comes?

[DaycareInferno]

the assumption is that villain will double blarrel most turns with most of his range, making a crai on the flop less profitable than letting him bluff the turn, since when he is behind, he's going to usually be 6:1 or worse to improve to best on the next card. it also leaves open the option of shoving first to act on the turn. this may or may not be a good assumption, but for the sake of my point, that's the assumption.

big aces are a pretty big part of a 6% range, so i think c/f is pretty reasonable on most Ahigh flops. sometimes donking might be alright, but i probably wouldn't ever call down like this.

like i said though, this is just one hand. my question is how to go about evaluating these hands and determining whether or not we made the right decision. we can be pretty confident when our opponent shows up with the bottom end of the range we put him on, but other than that, we usually don't have much to go on.

[Keitan]

In hand given against described opponent I like c/rai on flop. Your definitely ahead enough of the time for this play. With deeper stacks I prefer a call and c/rai on a blank turn.

The only way to be happy with your decision and not steam is decide before making your decision - is this play +EV? What's my hand equity (+fold equity) here given my opponent's range and tendencies. Once you've decided the play is +EV the hand is over - you've made the right decision - the result is meaningless - move on.

[Sharagoz]

Playing unimproved 1010/JJ OOP when somebody re-raises you PF are among the toughest in NLHE in my opinion. Knowing your opponent makes a lot of difference. This is one of the times Im most likely to donk bet because checking and calling the flop gives you little or no info at all. After you've called a resonable bet in a re-raised pot you're close to pot commited already, because the stacks are so shallow. Against very good agro players (rare at micro stakes) I might just fold these hands PF OOP to a re-raise if I dont have implied odds for set value.

[Spanky1974]

Very tough spot, as you have to call flop bet because he will cbet just about any flop. I think I like CRAI on flop if you are going to call PF. Against this villain, I think a non-tilty line would be to fold PF.

[Rounder101]

PF, the biggest mistake is the minraise, wtf?? make it 2$.
Flop, if you are calling this flop, you rather be shoving it. The moment you decide you will stick with this hand all the way, why not put the money in right now??
And also, villains seems very lag, so 4 betting/shove flop isnt that bad. His range is like 88+, and also, having a minraise in front of you just makes it even more tempting to reraise, so I wouldnt hate 4betting that much.
And absolutely no way Im folding it PF, or after.