Stox's Quiz #s 22 & 24.1

[jt1]

These two hand quizzes from Winning in Tough HOld 'em Games are very similar but the answers are very different.

#22

Hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the button.
BB is is loose and very aggressive

Hero open raises, sb folds, bb calls.

4 sb: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain check/calls.

3bb: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Villain checks. Stox recommends that Hero also checks to induce a river bluff in a small pot where villain probably doesn't have a draw and may have less than 6 outs.

Hand # 24.1

Hero open raises from CO with 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB calls. He is LAG

4 sb: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain check/calls.

3 bb: Villain checks. Stox recommends that Hero bet/folds because villain has at least 6 outs and as many as 15 outs.

Another reason that I've gathered but isn't mentioned is that villain in hand 1 is described as loose and <u>very</u> aggressive where villain in hand 2 is only described as loose agressive.

A point that is mentioned but is kind of baffeling is Stox saying that if you knew that Villain would bet river 100% of the time than a turn check <u>may</u> be best. "May" could just be a bad word choice because it seems to me that a turn check would absolutely be correct if you knew for sure that villain would bet the river.

Finally and most importantly, I am concerned that I may not properly understand an important concept. Stox repeats throughout the book that it is more important to bet and protect your hand the more outs villain could have. However, it also seems that the more outs villain has the more likely that he will check/raise bluff and force you to fold the best hand. I have been unable to reconcile those two concepts.

Any help would be appreciated.

FWIW, I would have checked both turns because both villains are LAG, the pot is small and this is a blind battle so the broadway would not scare them as much as if I had raised in the HJ or UTG.

[yourface]

villain doesn't necessarily know how many outs he has vs your hand, but you have a pretty good idea

an example is why I like to freeshowdown small pocket pairs on paired boards; villain doesn't know that he has a bunch of counterfeit outs, so he will make many FTOP mistake folds

[Romulet]

I read Stox(and Sklansky and Malmuth for that matter) and I often wonder how much value the result of a $150/300 hand has on a $5/10 hand.

Don't get me wrong since reading Stox I have gone from being a 0.5bb/hr in full ring muppett to somebody who is killing $5/10 short handed. I therefore must have some understanding of it.

My thoughts are that in these situations you really are splitting hairs and I have started to adopt the all in pre flop strategy.
Ie you cannot read the opponent due to their loose agressive nature therefore you must almost treat the hand as if the streets are merely means of getting to the end of the hand or getting your opponent to fold.

Having said that the first hand is just an example of the "turn value check." Getting the cheap showdown against a possibly inferior hand.

Hand 2 is a strange hand. I like to show down 22 against LAG opponents on garbage boards. See this is where a 5t player will float the turn whereas if it costs you $300 you may not want to do that king high.

The doubt comes with Stox as you have to have some bottle to carry out his tactics, ie if you think you are best bet and raise with impunity, sometimes you look like a muppett showing down AJ after a turn raise and sometimes you look a genius when their draw misses.
The good news is that when you show down the 22 as in example 2 you can bet you'll get paid off on your big hands.
Big variance big payoff!