NL Holdem subjects Sklansky and Miller are avoiding

[Point Point]

From page 5 of NLHTP:

"1. Reading hands and/or assigning probabilities to competing hands

2. Knowing when to 'change gears'

3. Using deception

4. Making others play badly (through mannerisms, conversation, or strategy)

5. Playing hands in ways that set up extra profits in the future

A 'talented' player who is good at these skills, but who has a shaky theoretical understanding of the game, can often easily beat a less talented player who has mastered the theory. Even if they sometimes make the wrong-sized bets or call with a draw when they shouldn't, talented players will still get the best of it through superior hand reading and other skills."

Have all of the theorists admitted that they are all inadequate to the task of teaching the skills (which they call "talent") that really matter? Are there books out there or are still in the works that teach what Sklansky and Miller have concluded that they are incapable of teaching?

Dismissing as "talent" things that can be argued to be "skills" seem lazy to me.

[Cactus Jack]

Have a nice life...

[fraac]

"Reading hands and/or assigning probabilities to competing hands"

The cornerstone of modern nl holdem theory and Sklansky has considered it roughly zero times in all his writing. Hand ranges, I mean.

[Point Point]

My original post is a direct quote from his book. Okay, he does have chapters on reading hands in TOP but how about 2, 3, 4, and 5?

[BatsShadow]

[ QUOTE ]
"Reading hands and/or assigning probabilities to competing hands"

The cornerstone of modern nl holdem theory and Sklansky has considered it roughly zero times in all his writing. Hand ranges, I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

See his book Poker, Gaming, and Life for a few articles that go into this pretty deeply. He covers it very similarly, though probably not quite as well as Harrington's coverage.

[Point Point]

"1. Reading hands and/or assigning probabilities to competing hands"

The R of REM in PNLH actually cover this.

"2. Knowing when to 'change gears'"

Brunson actually talks about "how" but not when. Basically, you shift from first gear to fourth gear abruptly but not gradually as in passing by third.

"3. Using deception"

The only book that teaches this is probably Sun Tzu's book.

"4. Making others play badly (through mannerisms, conversation, or strategy)"

Amarillo Slim should write this book.

"5. Playing hands in ways that set up extra profits in the future"

To my knowledge, no book covers this subject.

"A 'talented' player who is good at these skills, but who has a shaky theoretical understanding of the game, can often easily beat a less talented player who has mastered the theory."

This is a dramatic thing to say within the first five pages of a book on nolimit theory. I made the original post mainly because I think most of the 5 points that Sklansky and Miller have made above can probably be classified as skills not talent. If so, a book that teaches them would totally own any of the theory books that are available today, NLHTP and PNLH included per David Sklansky's and Ed Miller's open implication.

Which brings me to the question: Since there is no single book that teaches the elements of nolimit holdem "talent" listed by Sklansky and Miller above, what is a good combo of books, both poker and non-poker, that would teach those elements?

[aszmel]

[ QUOTE ]

Which brings me to the question: Since there is no single book that teaches the elements of nolimit holdem "talent" listed by Sklansky and Miller above, what is a good combo of books, both poker and non-poker, that would teach those elements?

[/ QUOTE ]

if anybody is able to explain how talented player play profitable ie at 30vpip/20pfr/4af? he's just superior at making right decisions postflop even in marginal situations, at seeing opponents' tendencies, flaws in their betting lines, adjusting and opening his unexploitable from game theory point of view game to exploitable one in order to exploit his opponents, you have it (and you know it) or you don't have it and should work on your skill to achieve higher level of better play through working and thinking, imo proper combo books for that is NLHT&P, PNL1 (and PNL2, hope soon!), MOP, this forum and... hardly thinking and analyzing own game... imho

[Gonso]

I liked NLHE:TAP for a lo of reasons, even if it ins't perfect (it isn't). That said I do think the subject of hand range evaluations is best addressed by NLHE specialists. The Cardrunners guys do a pretty good job of this, for example. PLaying online helps teach this concept better IMO because you have a little help from the HUD that you don't have live.

Prior to internet poker, I didn't have a feel for how often a person was actually raising, for example. "Hey, this guy is raising often", sure, but I have a much better feel for what 10% versus 20% PFR feels like. I also (thanks to Stove) know wtf constitutes the top 15% of hands more or less in these spots as well.

What we really need is a good hand range calculator where you can not only evaluate hands against ranges (like pokerstove), but one where you can assign different probabilities to each hand in the ranges. It would be nice to have a (quick) way to see if my estimates are reasonable or not... I've done the math for a few big hands, where I'd estimated his range correctly, but came to the wrong figure on the spot. Sitting down later I found the errors... but I don't want too many like that.

I mean, I don't expect to be able to figure out that my AJs is a 65.45 favorite against the range I estimate for PLayer X, but I'd like them to be reasonably close. Just going back and checking the numbers has given me a better feel for estimating, but again pokerstove doesn't allow me to give more or less weight to the different possible hands. Maybe I'll open that up in another thread.

But in the case of Sklansky, hmm. Maybe leaving out the hand range stuff wasn't bad, leave that to other authors who are probably more experienced with the game play aspect of ranges.

[6471849653]

There's some general stuff out about how to play tournaments and full ring cash games offline. But mainly the only subject I am interested about is NLH 6-max with example hands that categorically cover all the situations one faces.

[deacsoft]

[ QUOTE ]
My original post is a direct quote from his book.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's the case you should note then when quoting it and you should give credit to the author, name the book, name the publisher, the date of publication, and page(s) that you quoted text from.