It's Been Bugging Me....

[bearwiredpair]

I have been reading and studying for the past few months and every now and then I save up some pocket change and head out to test my new skills at the local casino.

I played this hand Friday night and its been bugging me ever since. Not that I think that I made a donk call here but bugging me in the way the table reacted to my play.

Its a live 40.00 buy in NLHE ring game. The blinds are 1/2. I had been playing for about 1 1/2 hours and I just bought in for the last time of the night so I have 40.00 in front of me. Its been hit and miss most of the night.

I am in seat 1 and Villian is BB in seat 6.

It limps to me and I look down at 10 8 off. I am short stacked and in bad position but the the preflop play has slowed down quite a bit in the last few hands and in hopes that this trend will continue I cross my fingers, say a prayer and throw the 2 bucks in and call.

It folds to SB who calls.

Next to act is the Villian and he says "raise" and makes it 12.00 to go.

Villian has been making this very same move all night long killing the action. When it does go to a show down with him 90% of the time he has marginal hands, weak paint and small pairs.

This is where it gets fun. The remaining players in the hand are tired of the Villian's play too and seat 7,8 and 9 all call his raise.

To me this is a no brainer even holding 10 8 off. I again cross my fingers, say a prayer and toss 10.00 into a 52.00 pot.

Small blind folds.

For some reason Villian is amazed at the action from the players in the hand. He calls time before the flop, stands up and yells across the casino floor "Anyone else want to call?!?!?!".

Flop comes K 10 6 rainbow and instantly Villian announces "All in!"

It folds to me.

My thinking is: holding middle pair with a weak kicker and 2 cards to come I have outs in the form of two pair and trips so I am only worried that Villian may be holding KK but my read on Villian says that is a long shot. I have 28.00 left and with the all in I will be putting in 28.00 to make 118.00. Darn close to 4:1 for my money.

Did I miss something or am I correct in calling here?

[bm120]

well yes you are getting close to 4-1, and its very very unlikely he holds kk, but something more along the lines of a kq or kj, if im there and he gets that upset about pf action, im inclined to think he has a decent hand but one that doesnt play too great 5 ways. if he has a king, you have 5 outs in the deck of 30 or so, 6-1 but with two streets to come its more like 3.5-1, sure give it a call.

[pzhon]

I disagree with both the initial call preflop and the call of the raise. T8o just doesn't hit the flop hard often enough to justify limping for 5% of your stack out of position, particularly in a game where there are a lot of raises preflop. After the raise, you should fold. You'll outflop an overpair about 5.5% of the time (3.5% with two pair, trips, or quads, and about 2% with straights). You can't expect to win $180 every time you flop 2 pair or better, so you need to find a lot of value from times that you just flop an OESD or one pair. It's not there, so you should fold.

Calling is clear if you know everyone else will fold. You have about a 20% (edit: I incorrectly had 25% here earlier, which makes a big difference) chance to win against a higher pair, and there is a chance that your hand might be good, although the villain probably has outs. With several players left to act after you, you can't be sure that you will be the only one to call. I think the call is probably ok, no matter what the people said, but it's not worth a lot. For $28 invested, this might return $30. It depends on the tendencies of the other players.

This helps to illustrate the value of position. If you had position on the other players, then before your turn you would see whether someone else called or raised (so you would be better off folding), or if you get to close the action with a clearly profitable call.

[JH1]

First of all I would never play this hand from early-middle position, and especially with an open limp.

Am I correct that this is the next hand after a rebuy - if it is I am thinking that you may be on tilt after losing a stack, and what I have found myself guilty of is playing marginal hands and trying to push the action when I get desperate to win a pot.

When you're calculating your odds, you also can't include the bet that you have yet to call in the pot side of the odds. Your odds are - Current Pot:Amount to call - so your odds are 80:28 or ~ 2.8:1 if I read your description of the hand correctly.

You've got 5 outs here so your chances of improving are about 20% by the river, not enough to call. I would be worried about more than just KK, I'd be worried about Kx and pocket pairs 10+. You're not ahead of anything except pocket pairs 9 and lower and a bluff.

I generally have a tough time going broke with TP without an excellent read, nevermind second pair. If you had that good of a read, then good call.

Judging by what you were saying about the table's reaction, you caught one of your outs when you didn't have odds and they berated you for it.

[phazeONE]

And this is a $40 1/2 game? Isn't the MIN usually $60?

[Albert Moulton]

If his range is 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,ATo+,KJo+,QJo, then you have 41% eqity (about 6:4 or 1.5:1).

You get almost 4:1 on your money.

Seems like a no-brainer call if his range is as wide as you think it is.

But you really should have just folded preflop instead of limp/called. Once you limped, you probably should have folded to the raise despite the mulit-way action. Let's say that the other 4 players have a range of 22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o +,J9o+,T9o.

Vs that range for each of the other players, 8To stands at about 14% equity if you run out all the cards. If stacks were deeper and you were on the button, or even if you were deeper and you were last to act after the raiser before the flop, then a call might be in order. But you are short stacked, so you don't have good implied odds. You don't have good position in case you do hit the flop. And you don't have straight pot-odds to justify a call (you'd need about 7:1 and be able to run out all the cards to justify a call).

However, despite your two mistakes in not folding preflop, you were right to call his all-in on the flop given your read on his range.

FWIW, I'd hate to play in this game. I haven't read up on the short stack strategy that Ed Miller's written about, but I'd invest in that book if I wanted to play in a 20bb max buy-in game. Yuck.

[JH1]

Am I out to lunch on the pot odds here? Everyone keeps saying 4:1. Pot is $52 on the flop. Villain pushes AI for an effective $28 as he's got Hero covered making it an $80 pot for Hero assuming everyone else folds. Hero has to call $28 AI therefore making it 80:28 = ~2.9:1.

OP is including his $28 call to make it 108:28 instead of 80:28. If you calculate it this way you get 4:1 and calling is correct, or more accurately close to neutral EV. 80:28 is 3:1 and not correct to call as it's -EV if he has to improve to win.

???

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I out to lunch on the pot odds here? Everyone keeps saying 4:1. Pot is $52 on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
It wasn't clear to me how many other players were in, but at least 5 players put in $12 preflop, and the SB completed and then folded, so the pot is at least $62. If that is all it was, then the hero is closing the action getting slightly better than 3:1, and I still think the call is marginally correct.

[old dogg]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been reading and studying for the past few months and every now and then I save up some pocket change and head out to test my new skills at the local casino.

I played this hand Friday night and its been bugging me ever since. Not that I think that I made a donk call here but bugging me in the way the table reacted to my play.

Its a live 40.00 buy in NLHE ring game. The blinds are 1/2. I had been playing for about 1 1/2 hours and I just bought in for the last time of the night so I have 40.00 in front of me. Its been hit and miss most of the night.

I am in seat 1 and Villian is BB in seat 6.

It limps to me and I look down at 10 8 off. I am short stacked and in bad position but the the preflop play has slowed down quite a bit in the last few hands and in hopes that this trend will continue I cross my fingers, say a prayer and throw the 2 bucks in and call.

It folds to SB who calls.

Next to act is the Villian and he says "raise" and makes it 12.00 to go.

Villian has been making this very same move all night long killing the action. When it does go to a show down with him 90% of the time he has marginal hands, weak paint and small pairs.

This is where it gets fun. The remaining players in the hand are tired of the Villian's play too and seat 7,8 and 9 all call his raise.

To me this is a no brainer even holding 10 8 off. I again cross my fingers, say a prayer and toss 10.00 into a 52.00 pot.

Small blind folds.

For some reason Villian is amazed at the action from the players in the hand. He calls time before the flop, stands up and yells across the casino floor "Anyone else want to call?!?!?!".

Flop comes K 10 6 rainbow and instantly Villian announces "All in!"

It folds to me.

My thinking is: holding middle pair with a weak kicker and 2 cards to come I have outs in the form of two pair and trips so I am only worried that Villian may be holding KK but my read on Villian says that is a long shot. I have 28.00 left and with the all in I will be putting in 28.00 to make 118.00. Darn close to 4:1 for my money.

Did I miss something or am I correct in calling here?

[/ QUOTE ]


hmmmm hell if i know?

[Fishhead24]

[ QUOTE ]
And this is a $40 1/2 game? Isn't the MIN usually $60?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some joints allow for a re-buy of a mere $20.....not uncommon.