$3.4 - 66 facing a standard raise L3

[mattiesmat]

I limped in with my 66 for set value. Then I faced a 3x BB raise. I did not knew if I should call. I know a bit about a 'rule' of <5% or <10% of your stack. Can anyone perhaps explain this rule to me, perhaps with an example? Also, does the first call count for the percentage. Do I have to do 150/stack or 100/stack?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) by Hand Converter CG

BB (t285)
UTG (t3580)
Hero (t1425)
CO (t5685)
Button (t2955)
SB (t1070)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t50, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero ??

[Al P]

I'd fold with your T50 loss.

[ger664]

This is a fold once it comes back to you.

As for your initial Play. Open limping from this position is not profitable. You do not have the implied odds due to BB &amp; SB stack sizes behind.

Fold would be a default line but with reads you could raise here as well.

[CASHius-Clay]

without reads I would fold to this raise.

[Kibby]

fold or raise to 250 PF. in a 3.4, this should be a fold PF.

[CASHius-Clay]

[ QUOTE ]
fold or raise to 250 PF. in a 3.4, this should be a fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would'nt raise to 250.

If you would raise to 250 there will be 275 in the pot and villain just had to call 100 he'll be getting 2.75 to 1 Pot Odds. He will make the call most of the times and there will be Overcards to the pockets sixes on the flop almost anytime.

[Kibby]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold or raise to 250 PF. in a 3.4, this should be a fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would'nt raise to 250.

If you would raise to 250 there will be 275 in the pot and villain just had to call 100 he'll be getting 2.75 to 1 Pot Odds. He will make the call most of the times and there will be Overcards to the pockets sixes on the flop almost anytime.

[/ QUOTE ]jesus, I had to read this 5 times to figure out that you weren't talking about opening the pot like I am. basically what I'm saying is the OP shouldn't be asking whether to call or not because he should never be in this situation. he should be opening for a raise or folding. never limping. as played? whatever. I don't think there's much difference in calling or folding but it would probably take a read. if the villain will bet a pair or c-bet and not lay down a pair to your c/r then you can call.

[CASHius-Clay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold or raise to 250 PF. in a 3.4, this should be a fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would'nt raise to 250.

If you would raise to 250 there will be 275 in the pot and villain just had to call 100 he'll be getting 2.75 to 1 Pot Odds. He will make the call most of the times and there will be Overcards to the pockets sixes on the flop almost anytime.

[/ QUOTE ]jesus, I had to read this 5 times to figure out that you weren't talking about opening the pot like I am. basically what I'm saying is the OP shouldn't be asking whether to call or not because he should never be in this situation. he should be opening for a raise or folding. never limping. as played? whatever. I don't think there's much difference in calling or folding but it would probably take a read. if the villain will bet a pair or c-bet and not lay down a pair to your c/r then you can call.

[/ QUOTE ]

my bad. I overread the PF on your post and thought you were speaking of reraising.

Of course you are right that OP shouldnt limp. I would propably limp in sb or check in bb for setvalue.

[taipan168]

<font color="red">I posted this in response to OP's post on another forum but I thought I'd post it here to get any feedback.</font>

Your hand:

Personally I would tend to fold this from UTG+1. If the table has been very passive then I would limp. The problem is that you may not have odds to play for set value if somebody raises you by more than a certain amount. The other problem is that if SB raises you, you won't have implied odds to call since his stack is too short (see explanation below)

As played, since you close the action I tend to call the raise, particularly since it was the big stack who raised (which tends to increase your implied odds since he might be prepared to lose more of his chips if you hit your set because he is the big stack).

10x/20x set implied odds rule:

The set value rule takes a bit more explanation. Basically, with a pocket pair you are about 7.5 to 1 against to hit a set on a flop. Therefore, if you could be guaranteed to double up against opp 100% of the time when you hit a set, you could call any preflop raise provided you can win 7.5x the number of chips you need to call.

However, you won't double up every time you hit a set so this reduces your implied odds. The 10x/20x "rule" as I understand it is that if you can win &gt;20x the chips you need to call, you should usually call the raise, but if you can only win &lt;10x the chips you need to call then you should usually fold. Between 10x and 20x it depends.

There are some other factors to consider too:
- Remember that the 10x/20x needs to be relative to the total chips you can win. This means it's the smaller of your stack or your opp's stack plus the chips in the pot preflop (which are usually not that significant in the calc).
- If opp is a donkey then you can call a larger raise preflop since they are more likely to stack off if you hit a set. Conversely if opp is a good player you need to be able to win more chips to call
- Your position and how many players still to act after you is also a factor. For example, if you are in early MP, UTG raises and you call, there may be 4-6 other players who could raise after you meaning you have to fold.

Worked example (back to your hand):

The chips you can win are the chips already in the pot (your 50 + CO's 150 + SB/BB 75 = 275) plus double your remaining 1375 stack, so you could win 1650 chips by calling off 100 chips (you calculate this off 100 not 150 since the 50 chips you limped are gone already and you need to call 100 to see a flop). So you can win 16.5x the chips you need to call, leaning towards a call here.

Other factors to consider:
- You are up against the big stack. He can double you up and still be the big stack. Points towards a call.
- You close the action (nobody else can re-raise). Points towards a call.

All in all I think i would call in your situation after having limped.

Now, let's say SB (rather than CO) raised you to 150. In this case you can win the chips in the pot preflop (50 + 150 + 50 = 250) plus SB's remaining stack (920) = 1170. So you need to call 100 chips to win 1170 = 11.7x. In this case I would lean towards a fold - also because SB would have to completely stack off before you could even win 11.7x.

Lastly, let's say CO raised you to 200 rather than 150. In this case you can win 1700 chips (50 + 200 + 75 + 1375) but need to call off 150 chips so can only win 11.3x the chips you need to call. Therefore, you should usually fold here.

This is why you would fold preflop - because SB and BB's stacks aren't deep enough to allow you to play for set value. (Of course, if you limped, it was folded to BB who shoved you would probably call due to pot odds but that's a different story). Also, if CO puts in a bigger raise than he did then you don't have implied odds to call (hence the 3x BB plus 1x BB raising rule if you are in CO's shoes).

Hope that helps.

[JROK777]

You have to be able to make 10x's the amount you are asked to call pf. If villian raises to 175, you need to be able to profit 1750 from his stack+dead pot $. The above post lays it out. I would call in your hand. If you call and it gets reraised, just fold. I'd say this is a clear call.