getting scooooped

[quirkasaurus]

i have been stacked twice recently, heads up, when
holding a decent low and decent high, in both cases,
it was 2nd best low ( A3 ), and a less than nuts
flush. By recently, i mean, in the last 3 or 4 sessions.

i'm a little shell-shocked -- but because i've played
10,000's of PLO8 hands, and while i'll get dual nuts
draws ( the typical A2 suited ), i almost never scoop
like this.

my question is: what are the reasonable odds to expect
to hit the nuts high and low with a hand like A2sXX ?

thanks.

[franknagaijr]

NFD and NLD is the classic heartbreakin' jammin' hand. You should never fear getting it all in the middle with this flopped draw, but you have to recognized that you have at most 9 outs for the flush, and if you have counterfeit protection, you've got 16 max outs for the low. If you look at it from the other direction, that means that there are plenty of bricks just waiting to rip your heart out.

So to think that this hand scoops often would be a mistake, but to not put it in the middle with this would be an even bigger mistake.

[quirkasaurus]

i guess that brings up another question then.
and that may mean that my starting range is
skewed.

i consider the best starting hand:

AA23 doubly suited.

Next, I like 4 in a row hands, especially, 4 in a row 8 and above.
NFD with some sort of coordinated draw, like A7s - KcQc...
Paired overcards, with some sort of coordinated draw...
other pairs with a decent low draw. ( A2, A3, 23... A455... )
finally, junk like 89JQ might be playable in MP/LP.

Other thoughts?

[franknagaijr]

Quirkasaurus and tmck - go here, read up, then come back with more questions:

http://o8poker.com/

[quirkasaurus]

will do, frank. thanks.

[bbartlog]

I think most good O8 players would disagree with your ideas about good hands.
- four in a row: needs to be at least 9TJQ+ (on the high side) or 2345/3456(maybe) on the low side to be playable, and many players would consider 3456 and 9TJQ to be junky as well. 4567 through 89TJ are not good hands. Also, for my own taste even the higher wrap type hands need to be suited to be much good.
- NFD with other draw. A7KQds is playable in late position but hardly a great hand.
- Pair overcards with a draw - you mean like KKT9, QQTJ? Or do you include KK45 in this group? Any combinations of low cards (like the 45 in KK45) should be heavily discounted for their high potential unless you also have the matching low.

In general it sounds like you are undervaluing low-type hands. Also funny that you don't mention AAxx (other than AA23). I would look at starting hand ranges like this (w=wheel card, s=suited to the ace, l=non-wheel low card):
AAwx
A2wxs
AAlx
A2+high pocket pair
A2+other high potential (could be the ace is suited, or low pair, or connectors, or two broadway cards)
A3wxs or A3+high pocket pair
A2+junk or A3+other high potential

I actually play quite a few hands outside this range, but if you want a list of premium hands that a tight player would play that mostly sums it up (and some will fold A2+junk). You would want to add some high-type hands and some 23xx and A4xx hands to round out the range if you were playing a more normal degree of tightness. And of course there are caveats; AAlx plays well HU but is fairly useless in a loose limit game.

[quirkasaurus]

thanks, bbartlog.

i certainly don't discard A2xx, especially with some W blank protection.

but i understand the TJKQ or better, if you mean, that the
pot will most likely be split if you make a nuts straight
with 89TJ holding. Worse, you could easily get quartered.

but i like your starting ranges, and of course, it loosens
up a little based on position, # of limpers / raisers, etc...

Thanks, again, all good stuff.

[tmcdmck]

thanks frank!

[Assani Fisher]

quickasaurus, no offense but your starting hand selection needs a lot of work. I agree with the recommendations to look at o8poker

[tvta]

on the topic of high only hands - i feel that when im OOP with one of these, its completely useless if a low draw flops as well.

a million times over this has happened to me - flop top set (or other strong hi hand that you know is best) with no low draw. ex flop T37. get called and check turn when a 4 hits, villian bets pot. one thing im starting to realize is that pot limit just sucks in this regard, you are forced to bet a top set on the flop because i pray that some donkey will shove a mid set, but you are easily getting freerolled on for a potentially large amount of money.


what ive started to do is simply play a full ring vpip of about 10. pathetic i know, but it keeps my stress level down. i play plo also, so i just keep my hi low games on my side monitor and simply wait for premiums, and pay attn to my plo games on my main screen.

thoughts?