Line Check, turned flush OOP....

[heffmike]

Full Tilt tourney, 10+1 double stack.
No real reads on villain, probably just an average player.

Thoughts on line?
Raise or lead flop with big draw, or ok just to call and see another card?
Now that we got there, donk bet turn or go for checkraise?
With stack sizes (I have 4600 behind) how can I best get villain to commit more chips - he should be smart enough to check behind turn, right?

Seat 1: MP (6,280)
Seat 2: CO (2,020)
Seat 3: BTN (4,860)
Seat 5: HERO (5,675)
Seat 7: VILLAIN (10,065)
Seat 8: UTG (5,790)
Seat 9: UTG+1 (6,335)
HERO posts the small blind of 100
VILLIAN posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #3

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP calls, CO folds, Button folds, HERO calls, VILLIAN checks.

Flop: (1000) [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
HERO checks, <font color="#CC3333">VILLIAN bets 800</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">HERO calls 800.</font>

Turn: (2600) [J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero ?????</font>,

[bknollenberg]

by checking the flop you are basically establishing that you have a draw, which then gets tricky to get out of. too many times when i've played flush draws this way i will check the turn OOP, and villian will check. then of course there is a bet / fold on the river. however, he made a pretty unreasonably large bet on that flop, so he could actually hold a flush draw, a set of 6's, 2 pair, or even just an ace. his flop bet may allow you to check the turn and still have him bet.

if i were in this hand from the start, i would have bet out at the flop, about half the pot. if he raises you, i may semi-bluff all in, with my reason being that he checked from BB in a 5-way pot (if he's holding a big pair or a big ace, that's probably not the best way to go). with that said, he'd have to basically have A6, AJ, or a set to call you, and you're drawing to at least 12 outs to the nuts, and potentially 18 outs for the win.

just my two cents. i never spent all that much time working out how to play draws, and would just do the standard check / call, but, for whatever reason, i only recently really started working on disguising them. you give away way too much info playing them as they are.

[The-Donk]

Bet half pot and then shove

[J.A.K.]

I play it straight and bet ~2000. It's a nice pot already and his strong flop lead into 4 players might be a hand he can't fold/we can't give free shot to beat us. A fourth diamond kills any action we get on the river if he checks behind turn.

[MJBuddy]

I'm throw out about 1500 here and then jam river.

[cheburashka]

OK, here's another example of what I was talking about in my implied odds post.

Hero here has clearly overpaid for his flush, based solely on the actual odds. To break even, from a theoretical viewpoint, he has to get at least 600 additional chips here.

None of you said that Hero made a mistake, which means that you all must feel confident he can get paid now. My questions are: How can you be so confident? How can you recognize when it makes sense and when it doesn't to accept poor (actual) odds?

In one of the stickies, CardSharpCook makes the point very strongly that he basically makes his living off of offering weaker players bad actual odds and never paying implied odds. Is the issue simply that there aren't very many CardSharpCooks running around? Or am I missing something else?

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, here's another example of what I was talking about in my implied odds post.

Hero here has clearly overpaid for his flush, based solely on the actual odds. To break even, from a theoretical viewpoint, he has to get at least 600 additional chips here.

None of you said that Hero made a mistake, which means that you all must feel confident he can get paid now. My questions are: How can you be so confident? How can you recognize when it makes sense and when it doesn't to accept poor (actual) odds?

In one of the stickies, CardSharpCook makes the point very strongly that he basically makes his living off of offering weaker players bad actual odds and never paying implied odds. Is the issue simply that there aren't very many CardSharpCooks running around? Or am I missing something else?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to not pay off implied most of the time as well. Mostly by shutting down on turns when they attempt to checkraise. If you fold everytime a draw gets there, you have a leak however. That's the catch to value betting once you get your draw. Betting the amount that a person can calculate "I'm ahead enough times here to make this call profitable".

[heffmike]

bump for results - I led for half pot, villain folded. I wanted to make it look like "I'm protecting a decent TP hand but will fold to a jam" - but no joy.

not the most interesting of hands... I did think about leading, but not into a five way pot from the small blind... which is why I didn't raise the flop, because the bet came out of the big blind, so I figured it had to be a strong hand (set/two pair) or draw betting into that many players. I've got any draw crushed with the str8 and flush outs and didn't think a jam would get a fold often enough here from A6/J6 to be worthwhile.

Decent thought process, or just get it in on the flop?