Don't laugh... $5NL - Over valuing pocket pairs

EN09 · #1 08-16-2007, 10:27 AM

Looking to seriously apply 2p2 knowledge to my game. At $10NL and $25NL I have a serious problem possibly over valuing pocket pairs as well as calling large bets/All-In's with AK type hands that hit an A or K on the flop.

I've moved down to $5NL to learn how to play better. Sorry if this is lower than what you're used too.

The question is what does villains turn bet mean? I've seen this at $10NL and $25NL. 2nd question is line play. I 3 bet the flop on the rag board hoping to take control, or take the pot there, and possibly get to SD cheap as possible, if need be.

No reads other than villain is from Glasgow and this is the first orbit. All thoughts appreciated.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.02/$0.05 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $8.92
BB: $10.45
UTG: $21.92
UTG+1: $4.84
MP1: $6.68
Hero (MP2): $5.95
MP3: $4.00
CO: $3.37
BTN: $5.44

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 4 folds, BB calls $0.20, MP1 folds

Flop: ($0.62) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, BB calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.12) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

Considered 3/4 potting it here but figured a call would allow me to get to river and I didn't want reraised for my stack. This is where I'm bleeding chips especially with JJ on this type of board. Been felted 4 times just like this.

River: ($2.22) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.40, Hero folds

Pot Size: $2.62 ($0.10 Rake)

gregorio · #2 08-16-2007, 11:44 AM

BB bet means BB is a moran. Could be a misclick, a desperation bet as time is running down and no chance to type in a real bet, a horrible blocking bet, or a horrible attempt to get value from a set.

I treat these min bets as if they just checked and raise to whatever I would have bet if BB had just checked. You are usually way ahead here. I bet at least 1/2 pot for value. Just calling you lose lots of value, and give him a free card in case he actually had an A.

I think you are seriously undervaluing your pocket pair here, not over valuing it like you say in the subject. BB could have a set here and have you crushed, but if he did, he played it terribly. If he showed more aggression, like large raise/push on flop, or psb on turn, then you have to seriously consider a set. But vs. this level of aggression (a min turn donk--least amount of aggression BB could possible show), you should like your overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
I 3 bet the flop on the rag board hoping to take control, or take the pot there, and possibly get to SD cheap as possible, if need be.

[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't 3bet flop, you raised. You don't want a cheap showdown, you want value,

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: ($2.12) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

Considered 3/4 potting it here but figured a call would allow me to get to river and I didn't want reraised for my stack. This is where I'm bleeding chips especially with JJ on this type of board. Been felted 4 times just like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to get to showdown for free/cheap. You need more value out of this hand. Your 3/4 potting idea is good. In this situation, you need to get more value and not be scared based on the past. Please post hands where you were felted in similar situations for comments. Perhaps you played those poorly, or they were just coolers, but if you get some ideas on those, it could help you understand how to play similar pots in the future.

jstill · #3 08-16-2007, 12:30 PM

his turn bets so retarded raise that shizz up fold if he shoves, probably ck behind the river if he calls and either flush hit

as played call river u win 1:4 after this line... hes betting worse pairs and missed draws this way plenty to call.

BenzeneBird · #4 08-16-2007, 12:38 PM

as played, you probably cant raise the river for value, but please call, its a tiny bet. I dont see how the ace has changed much, are you worried about a nut FD that now has top pair? maybe scared of A10? a busted fd draw or some random rubbish is more likely i feel.

raise turn, and value bet blank river.

EN09 · #5 08-16-2007, 12:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Please post hands where you were felted in similar situations for comments. Perhaps you played those poorly, or they were just coolers, but if you get some ideas on those, it could help you understand how to play similar pots in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm including the SD and villains hands in these examples as I'm not too concerned with the outcomes more than I am in how the lines are played. I'm not on a short bankroll but don't want to play $25 or $50NL to learn these NL lessons the expensive way. And at the $10 and $5NL level there is no scared money syndrome to deal with. Thanks for your help here. I appreciate it.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $9.60
BB: $9.30
UTG: $30.30
UTG+1: $26.05
MP1: $6.10
MP2: $9.85
CO: $7.85
BTN: $2.85

Reads: Villain 26/6.5/.76 100+ hands. I took into consideration his low AF passivity, but couldn't release the J's, and felt the 6xBB was a bit large and maybe he was pushing an AK/Q, AJs or possibly a small pair. The AI sounded warning bells, but again I think I overvalued the JJ, and thought he could hold an AdKd or some type of FD. IN the end I called the AI with the Jacks.

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 Players)
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.60, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.55, BB folds
Uncalled bet of $0.00 returned to Hero

Flop: ($1.30) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero bets $2.40, MP2 raises to $9.00, Hero calls all-in for $6.60

Turn: ($19.30) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($19.30) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $19.30 ($1.90 Rake)

MP2 had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Aces) and WON (+$7.80)
Hero had J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and LOST (-$9.60)

~~~~~~

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $9.70
BB: $11.35
UTG: $9.70
UTG+1: $10.10
MP1: $13.40
MP2: $10.80
MP3: $10.10
CO: $10.20
Hero (BTN): $4.85

Reads: Villain was 24/2.7/1.5 w/100+ hands. In hindsght I should have raised this pf - Guilty of FPS. Hoping to hit the set and to get paid off big.

I pot it on the flop, get called and the villain leads into me for a little over pot on the turn, $2.00. I have $4.25 left and will only have $2.25 left. Thinking the flop/turn will miss him a majority of the time and my personality hates to lose or get outplayed, I Pavlov dog it and push back. (A big leakage in my NL game. I'm currently working on better reads, trusting my gut, and pulling up my skirt when folding a decent hand on the river to aggression. This morning I laid down a set of 8's to a turn 3 flush w/aggression. I feel like a lil girl sometimes. I'm finding big bets on the river at $10NL are usually winners.)

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 Players)
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, CO folds, Hero calls $0.10, SB folds, BB checks

Flop: ($0.45) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.50, BB calls $0.50, 2 folds

Turn: ($1.45) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $2.00, Hero raises all-in to $4.25, BB calls $2.25

River: ($9.95) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $9.95 ($0.45 Rake)

BB had 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Fours) and WON (+$4.65)
Hero had T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and LOST (-$4.85)

~~~~~

This hand is from this morning while working on my game at $5NL but, very similar to what I'm taking about.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.02/$0.05 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $5.95
BB: $0.90
UTG: $15.73
UTG+1: $2.60
MP1: $20.01
MP2: $6.56
MP3: $10.43
Hero (CO): $7.59
BTN: $7.04

Reads: Villain is 33/13/2.0 w/80+ hands. I call the pfr for set value. Check the flop to see turn card and go from there. Turn still no action so I half pot it to test the waters. Two callers. River is a blocking bet? (I'm still trying to correctly utilize the blocking bet.)

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG raises to $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 2 folds, BB calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.22) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.22) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.60, BB calls all-in for $0.60, UTG calls $0.60, UTG+1 folds

River: ($3.02) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 All-In)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.15, UTG calls $1.15

Pot Size: $5.32 ($0.25 Rake)

BB had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Sixes and Fours) and LOST (-$0.90)
UTG had 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and LOST (-$2.05)
Hero had T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Tens and Sixes) and WON (+$3.02)

RacersEdge · #6 08-16-2007, 01:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looking to seriously apply 2p2 knowledge to my game. At $10NL and $25NL I have a serious problem possibly over valuing pocket pairs as well as calling large bets/All-In's with AK type hands that hit an A or K on the flop.

I've moved down to $5NL to learn how to play better. Sorry if this is lower than what you're used too.

The question is what does villains turn bet mean? I've seen this at $10NL and $25NL. 2nd question is line play. I 3 bet the flop on the rag board hoping to take control, or take the pot there, and possibly get to SD cheap as possible, if need be.

No reads other than villain is from Glasgow and this is the first orbit. All thoughts appreciated.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.02/$0.05 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $8.92
BB: $10.45
UTG: $21.92
UTG+1: $4.84
MP1: $6.68
Hero (MP2): $5.95
MP3: $4.00
CO: $3.37
BTN: $5.44

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.25, 4 folds, BB calls $0.20, MP1 folds

Flop: ($0.62) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.75, BB calls $0.50

Turn: ($2.12) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.05, Hero calls $0.05

Considered 3/4 potting it here but figured a call would allow me to get to river and I didn't want reraised for my stack. This is where I'm bleeding chips especially with JJ on this type of board. Been felted 4 times just like this.

River: ($2.22) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $0.40, Hero folds

Pot Size: $2.62 ($0.10 Rake)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like some opinions on this line: make a pot size raise of about 1.35 on the turn making the pot about $3.30 if called - then pushing the remining $4.40 on the turn. I'm trying to think throuh this "commitment" mindset from the PNL book.

EN09 · #7 08-16-2007, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like some opinions on this line: make a pot size raise of about 1.35 on the turn making the pot about $3.30 if called - then pushing the remining $4.40 on the turn. I'm trying to think throuh this "commitment" mindset from the PNL book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Push the $4.40 if checked to on the turn, or do you call any bet?

I'm interested in this "commitment" mindset statement of yours as it kind of describes my thought process throughout these hands. Any links to other posts with good content on this would be great.

gregorio · #8 08-16-2007, 02:50 PM

1. First hand is tough, and I don't think your call is bad. You are up against TPTK/FD enough to make call okay. I think you are right with your read that with on 6.5PFR, the 6BB raise shows a lot of strength, and the shove with AF<1 also suggests QQ+, so I try to fold vs those stats, but call vs a lot of people.

Differences between that hand and the first one you posted villain showed strength pre-flop and villain raises AI. In the hand you posted, there was no strength shown PF and villain was not aggressive post flop. You were scared that villain would push based on previous hands, but there was nothing in that hand you should have been scared of.

2. Second hand you have overpair and your flop bet was fine., but with board paired and then an overcard comes on the turn and villain bets, it looks like villain has the trips or at least the J so you are almost certainly behind.

Like you say, raise PF. You talk about trusting your gut. What does your gut tell you when villain overbets turn with the paired board and overcard. Did your gut say you were beat?

Again, this hand isn't like the first one you posted because villain has shown a lot a strength, and because here there are lots of obvious hands you are behind to (trips and Jx).

3. You have overpair and their are lots of draws. Bet this flop. You gave UTG with OESD a free card (you also gave BB free draw to overcards, which is mistake if they had a real stack). If you get cr'd by UTG, than curse a lot and call if not too much and hope they are on draw and check turn.

NIX · #9 08-16-2007, 07:11 PM

Some of those hands seem all over the place to me.

In the first hand, I don't like that large bet on the flop. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to accomplish with it, but I'd go with something closer to the size of the pot. If he's going to fold, he'd probably do it for $1 less. Same if he's going to call. With your big flop bet and the passive guy pushing, I don't think folding would be too bad.

In the second hand, I don't think I like the push because of how strong his bet looks when I don't know what he's doing that with that you beat other than a pure bluff.

In the last one, I think you should bet the flop unless you're planning to fold to just about turn bet since there aren't really any safe cards that can come.