Playing low to medium PP's in blinds/EP. +EV or not?

[BIGFISH72]

Hi guys,

I had an interesting discussion between friends last night about playing low to medium pocket pairs for set value in EP against a LP raise of 3 - 4 X BB, when everyone else has folded.

So I thought it would good to post and get some view points from the experts.

We came to the conclusion that against one LP raiser even with a full stack, it is unlikely to be profitable over time as:

we have an 7.5-1 chance of hitting a set on the flop

the raiser has to hit the flop (unless he had a big pair)

if you do hit your set, its unlikely you'll get paid off regardless of betting out in EP or just calling one cbet as
it is highly probable that no more $ will be going into the pot thereafter.

We play 25 and 50NL full ring, not that its really relevant.

Did we reach the right conclusion?

BF

[jetsetboy]

You can play pp in blinds but calling for set value isn't really a great play as it's hard to extract oop. I only call in this situation when EP raiser has a really tight range like QQ+/AK and won't be able to fold an overpair (which is clearly not a good idea at NL25/50 by the way). When the pfrer has a wider range like any pp and AK/AQ/KQs or even more if he is not really positional aware or is a maniac a 3bet preflop is a good idea as long as you have some FE. You could also call and c/r on non dangerous board when you think it's unlikely that he has hit anything. The more you know the vilain the more you will be able to know if it's likely or not that he has hit the board. Check the various FAQ (here, SSNL, µNL) and the pooh bah posts for pp, implied odds, 3bet and check raise and u'll find a lot of interesting stuffs (like why it's mathematically corect to 3bet 22 in some situations).

[Renton]

check raise random flops


PWN

[BIGFISH72]

thanks for the comments guys, particularly your insight jetset.

Ian

[grouchie]

[ QUOTE ]
check raise random flops


PWN

[/ QUOTE ]

Against Regs especially

[grouchie]

here are my stats for small and mid PP's for the Blinds and the 1st 3 positions.
Mostly from NL50, and 33 and 88 both have at least one hand where I flopped a set and lost a full $50 buy-in.

[ActionStan]

I have to disagree here a bit jetset. I understand that you need the opponent to make some sort of hand to pay you off, but people just call too much at NL25 and NL50 to not play those hands. Pocket pairs really are a position independent hand. You either have a hand or you don't and at the general stack sizes played online (75-150BB) it is relatively easy to get someone to pay you off with a weak top pair. You have to bet it, of course, but players call the check/min-raise/ lead line over and over again. If you are a chonic slow player, then it won't pay to play. But, the defining characteristic of NL25 and NL50 is that people call too much and play pots that are too big with top pair hands.

It is even more true when there a lot of pre-flop callers so that pots play multi-way and build quickly. You don't have to drag too many 250BB 3 way pots with 55 to make up for the times when you only win the pre-flop pot + c-bet.

That said, it does pay to take other lines from time to time as well. It also pays to be aggressive post flop when it is unlikely that the flop hit the villain. Don't just roll over and play dead when you don't hit your set.

[jetsetboy]

I must confess that I didn't played NL25 since a long time. I don't remember very well how is the game. I was just giving two other ways to play pp in the bb against an EP raiser, I wasn't saying that it's always Ev-, just that you could play your pp for something else than pure set value.

[CalledDownLight]

Its definitely profitable to play them, just play for more than set value. Mix in leads, c/r, c/c and c/f on different types of boards depending on the likelihood of the player to have made a hand and the amount of heat it can take. I suck at screenshots, but I have had good results playing pp<TT.

[Effen]

You can't possibly be serious.