Question About Ratholing in .01/.02 nl

Fat And Crazy · #1 08-12-2007, 01:46 AM

I usualy buy in for $3 and my br is about $50-60, right now i have worked $3 into $18 and thats a large % of my br. at what point should i leave the table?

PugsMcGee · #2 08-12-2007, 02:19 AM

I'd say if you have more then 10 or 15% of ur bankroll on the table then leave the table.

Fat And Crazy · #3 08-12-2007, 02:20 AM

cool thanks i left.

DRUNK_TROLL · #4 08-12-2007, 03:22 AM

penny poker is Serious Business

AKQJ10 · #5 08-12-2007, 03:26 AM

Please don't confuse issues by calling it ratholing. You have the right to take all your chips off the table any time you wish. It's attempting to keep playing with only some of your chips that's ratholing.

pzhon · #6 08-12-2007, 03:49 AM

Many people are blindly applying the 20 buy-in guess out of context.

If you have $20, and buy in for $1 = 50 big blinds, this is much more dangerous than if you have $100, and buy in for $5 = 250 big blinds. It is much more common to risk 50 big blinds in a hand than 250, and you tend to have a smaller edge when you do so. The advice to buy in for at most 5% of your bankroll has many assumptions people forget, but one of them is that you are buying in for 100 big blinds. When you are buying in short, you need more buy-ins, and when you buy in for more than 100 BB, you don't need as many for the same level of safety, assuming typical winning play.

Usually, a huge stack can't be lost in one hand, since you have everyone covered. If you move all-in and lose, you lose only the size of the largest stack of someone who beat you. If you have $18 on the table, and the largest stack an opponent has is $8, it is as though you have an $8 stack.

It is probably highly profitable to stay. Whether your stack is larger or smaller, a stack size disparity often causes people to tilt. When you build a large stack, some opponents will avoid confrontations with you at all costs (these folks bet on red after a red streak). Others will make horrible calls against you, assuming that you are a lucky maniac, and your luck has to end (these folks bet on black after a red streak). Just try not to play badly as a result of your stack size, and you will probably have a much larger advantage than normal.

DiamondDog · #7 08-12-2007, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Many people are blindly applying the 20 buy-in guess out of context.

If you have $20, and buy in for $1 = 50 big blinds, this is much more dangerous than if you have $100, and buy in for $5 = 250 big blinds. It is much more common to risk 50 big blinds in a hand than 250, and you tend to have a smaller edge when you do so. The advice to buy in for at most 5% of your bankroll has many assumptions people forget, but one of them is that you are buying in for 100 big blinds. When you are buying in short, you need more buy-ins, and when you buy in for more than 100 BB, you don't need as many for the same level of safety, assuming typical winning play.

Usually, a huge stack can't be lost in one hand, since you have everyone covered. If you move all-in and lose, you lose only the size of the largest stack of someone who beat you. If you have $18 on the table, and the largest stack an opponent has is $8, it is as though you have an $8 stack.

It is probably highly profitable to stay. Whether your stack is larger or smaller, a stack size disparity often causes people to tilt. When you build a large stack, some opponents will avoid confrontations with you at all costs (these folks bet on red after a red streak). Others will make horrible calls against you, assuming that you are a lucky maniac, and your luck has to end (these folks bet on black after a red streak). Just try not to play badly as a result of your stack size, and you will probably have a much larger advantage than normal.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is useful. Thanks.

ChaseHigh · #8 08-12-2007, 05:18 AM

There's no reason to leave a table if you've earned alot of money there, regardless of how much of your bankroll it is.

In fact, if you worked $3 into $18 at a single table, you ought to stay there as long as possible, as there's a good chance you're up against weaker players - and like pzhon said, you can use a big stack to your advantage.

Ratholing, or even quitting just because you're ahead, is only a useful strategy for losing players who don't plan on playing poker again.

If you study up on gambling theory, you'll see why ratholing and stop-losses are pointless.

pzhon · #9 08-12-2007, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There's no reason to leave a table if you've earned alot of money there, regardless of how much of your bankroll it is.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. Both bankroll considerations and stack dynamics can tell you to leave, even if you are playing well.

Bankroll managament means you should walk away from some advantage gambles that are too big. Only when you have a deep stack can you lose 2 buy-ins in one hand. Standard bankroll assumptions imply that you need a larger advantage to risk 2 buy-ins than you do to risk 1. While your entire stack rarely goes in, bankroll considerations can tell you to cash out, and buy in twice elsewhere, even if you feel that you have a slightly larger advantage with a deep stack than you do with a normal stack.

Stack dynamics can mean that you don't have a larger advantage with a deep stack. Consider the player with 9 buy-ins in the first image I linked earlier in this thread. I was the only other deep stack at the table, I was playing well, and I had position on him. His extra chips were a liability every time he played a pot where I might be involved. It takes a huge advantage in skill to overcome that liability, so it might have been a good idea for him to cash out and move to another table.

Of couse, it's also the case that some players simply don't know how to play with a very deep stack. There are times when you should fold bottom set, for example, but it is rarely right with only 100 big blinds. If you will lose money playing with a deep stack, quit unless you are doing it for fun or educational value.

ChaseHigh · #10 08-12-2007, 04:33 PM

I kind of follow you. I just imagine this situation:

You sit in at 100NL with a $3000BR.

You win 20x the buy in at that one table (I know that's ridiculous, but I'm just making a point) so you're sitting with $2000 at the table, which is now 40% of your bankroll, which apparently is far too much.

I would assume that it is excellent table conditions that would lead to somebody winning 20x the buy-in at a single table, why on earth would you leave?

Even in the off chance there is one or two other people with similar stacks, you can bet that they got that money from the same donks you did, and at worst, you can lose all $2000 - in which case you've still only lost 3% of your original bankroll.