Middle pair in BB facing 2 bets

[acehole60]

I’ve been thinking about what to do when you have a middle pair (66-99) in the BB facing 2 bets. Here is a thought example:

MP opens, button 3-bets, SB folds, HERO have 77 in the BB.

What do we do if the two villains are loose? Tight? I’ve done some pokerstoving – feel free to comment on the handranges too. What’s your thoughts on this subject? And if you think the question is easy what’s the borderline hand where our action would differ?

Two loose villains:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.658% 34.04% 00.65% 30102912 576536.83 { 77 }
Hand 1: 29.501% 28.52% 01.01% 25219094 894674.83 { 22+, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, A2o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, T9o }
Hand 2: 35.841% 34.61% 01.26% 30611718 1114664.33 { 55+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }


Two tight villains:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.069% 29.77% 00.30% 17710750 176441.33 { 77 }
Hand 1: 30.124% 28.82% 01.30% 17146921 772546.83 { 66+, A7s+, KTs+, QTs+, A8o+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 39.807% 38.71% 01.10% 23025785 654214.83 { 99+, AJs+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }

[sharpie]

I don't know if it's right, but I rarely coldcall here, and usually fold 77 and lower without a read. Against the loosies I'll call or coldcap if the opener can fold for 2 much.

[midnightpulp]

I think calling depends on how loose the Villains are post-flop and whether you feel you can make at least 7 to 1 on the call.

I think you can call. There always the threat of a re-raise and then you would have to make roughly 10.5 BB for the play to be correct. We'll find a middle ground and say you should feel confident that you can make 9BB at the end of the hand.

Let's see, when the action gets to you, there's 6.5 SB in the pot: 2+3+.5+your BB. We know for sure that the original raiser will at least call, so you'll be getting 3.5 to 1 on your immediate odds.

Say your set flops. The bad thing here is that your relative position sucks. A check-raise knocks out the original raiser and a donk-bet might do the same. Best case scenario is that one of them hits the flop or has an overpair and jams along with you.

It's real thin.

I know there's a decent possibility that 77 will be best hand UI. Problem is, it plays bad post flop OOP against two raisers and there's always the threat of being outdrawn. Remember, Stove's equity calculations assumes you'll go to the river. So if there's any significant action on the flop, you'll have to fold and lose out on the chance to turn or river a set, which figures into your preflop EQ.

However, I think it's profitable, but only marginally so.

[blackasthma]

if button is a rock, this is probably a fold. But say MP is loose raiser and button is aware of this. In that case, calling and 4-betting are options. I'm more inclined to 4-bet if it gets me HU w/button...