27s: overpair 3way pot

darnold305 · #1 08-10-2007, 07:24 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1610)
MP3 (t1470)
CO (t1500)
Button (t1470)
SB (t1510)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1440)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, Hero raises to t100, MP1 calls t100, MP2 calls t100, 5 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t350) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t200, MP1 raises to t400,

Cixelsyd23 · #2 08-10-2007, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1610)
MP3 (t1470)
CO (t1500)
Button (t1470)
SB (t1510)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1440)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, Hero raises to t100, MP1 calls t100, MP2 calls t100, 5 folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t350) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets t200, MP1 raises to t400,

[/ QUOTE ]

this is real tough...any reads on mp1?...that minreraise is usually pretty strong, but he may also be trying to resteal what he thinks is a pure continuation bet, or he may have a 7...I consider calling and re-evaluating on the turn...can't see folding just yet absent reads

chuckpalms04 · #3 08-10-2007, 08:20 PM

if we don't have any reads then i think i just shove over and take a note of the action whatever happens. calling and re-evaluating is awful imo since we're oop and there are loads of turn cards that we're not going to like. we're ahead of a lot of villain's range here, like 22-66,88-TT, A7, flush draws, pure bluffs, etc. that makes pushing probably the most profitable play.

darnold305 · #4 08-10-2007, 08:21 PM

chuck I agree with you completely.. I really really hate calling and reevaluating. I shoved, KJ gg me... just needed a quick spot check

Cixelsyd23 · #5 08-10-2007, 08:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if we don't have any reads then i think i just shove over and take a note of the action whatever happens. calling and re-evaluating is awful imo since we're oop and there are loads of turn cards that we're not going to like. we're ahead of a lot of villain's range here, like 22-66,88-TT, A7, flush draws, pure bluffs, etc. that makes pushing probably the most profitable play.

[/ QUOTE ]

you convinced me, nicely explained, thank you. I just hate marginal situations w/QQ at t20

Luisgallo · #6 08-11-2007, 05:16 AM

This is now a very common situation.
You bet preflop and somebody called you, we are in round 1, most of the times he called you with mid pair.
You bet 200 into a 350 pot, this smells Cbet a lot so villain believes his 55 is good because you did not hit an A or a K.

I think you are way ahead in this spot and shovig here is wrong because 55 is not going to call you while you want him to make a bigger mistake.

I flat call here and bet the turn, no matter which card comes, it will look like a bluff and 55 might be invited to push, if he leads the turn you shove.

ymu · #7 08-11-2007, 06:01 AM

I often shove here, but I've been trying not to recently. It seems like a good way to get called when you're beat and let them off cheap when you're not.

In this hand, there's pretty much nothing he can sanely call AI with that doesn't beat us - he can't even have a smaller overpair here. Maybe a big combo draw, or two spade overs, and we're not much better than a coinflip with them anyway.

If you're happy to put all your chips in when villain can still get away cheap or swallow you whole, why not go into c/c mode?

My thinking may be way flawed, but I figure if he bluff-raised this, or raised it believing that his TT or whatever was ahead, calling the raise and then going limp gets you chips from him bluffing and/or a cheap/free showdown which you would never get from pushing, but can only lose you (at most) as many chips as you would have done from pushing into a better hand.

This ignores the effect of draws/cheap cards, of course, and if he's the type to raise a big draw on the flop then a push is probably the better play, but if he's likely to hang on to his mid pair/A7 or whatever for as long as you don't act strong, why not let him think he is ahead/has FE?

The paired flop is so popular for bluff raises with a wide variety of hands, I don't like folding but I don't like killing our equity from his bluffs either. Sometimes, it's good to be a calling station - and I think this might be one of them.

ymu · #8 08-11-2007, 06:04 AM

Agree with Luis about the size of the flop bet also. It's offering odds to any draw but also looks far too much like a c-bet - it's pretty much begging for a bluff raise.

Little John · #9 08-11-2007, 09:50 AM

i figure villian's most likely hands are the following:

- a jack

- a middle pair

- 7 (maybe A7 if he stinks really bad or 87s)

- overcards

- flush or str8 draw

- nothing

- monster

once the flop comes you MUST get as many chips in the middle as fast as possible. so the question after the raise is do you want to call, raise, or push.

i think pushing is clearly the best for almost all possible hands that villian may have:

J or moster - does not matter, you are going broke.

Middle pair - you need to push and get them in the middle if he has 88 before a turn or river card scares him.

7 - same thing, get them in before a turn card scares him.

Overcards - you cant call the raise and give him a free shot to hit his A or K, plus if you call the raise he is not gonna put in that many more chips. so just push and make him pay if want to see the next two cards.

flush/str8 draw - he will pay to see the next two cards so just get 'em. if the turn is 2d he may get scared.

nothing - he is not gonna have nothing too often (like 5d4d) very often and he is not gonna bluff future streets very often so no biggie to push him out.