Before the bubble, many players w/ low Ms. Adjustments?

[Befolder]

Background: I play in a monthly limited rebuy/add on tournament.

When we get to around 30 players or so (about 65 to start, about 12 paid), it always seems that if you don't have a big stack, that a lot of people at your table have low Ms and are/getting desperate.

I've had a little trouble navigating this part. If I push as lightly as I should be w/ vig, I've got a bigger chance of being called by a better hand by the other low Ms who know what I might be doing.

Should I wait a bit more for a slightly better hand? Should I min raise (if I can afford to fold if they push) the other low Ms who are waiting for premiums because they don't know any better, or should I just stay in push/fold mode and take my lumps?

I generally hate the min raise, but I've seen a couple other aware players make it work in the right situations. I'm wondering if it might be a good low risk/nice reward move against the right blinds in the right spots. Perhaps, w/ an M of 8 or less, when the raise is still a large enough percentage of their stack that they can't just call.

Thoughts? Playing this game tonight again.

[source99]

I really dislike the minraise here. If someone with a larger stack pushes can you call? if someone with a smaller stack pushes you are probably beat.

Also depends on position and the people playing the blinds.
According to their stack what is the right play for them regardless of cards?
Are they generally too tight or too loose defending their blinds?

[MJBuddy]

Open push lite. If they loosen their range to call you, that's +EV for you and you'll get called when you pick up big hands too. Also, if you M really is low enough, the dead money makes up for losses.

[Befolder]

Yeah, there are a lot of depends here.

I generally wouldn't min raise if there was still a big stack to act, then I'd push or fold.

If a smaller stack pushes that I know is tight, then I could fold and would have risked less than the standard raise, which was kind of the point. These types in the game will call my push or min raise equally so at least I don't trap my whole stack when I'm beaten was my thinking.

Generally, I'm looking for ways to blind steal against other small Ms who might fold too much, but not risk my whole stack because if my push is called, I'm beaten on less than great holdings. On my better hands, I'm pushing and hoping to be called, although that could be seen through after a while by some players.

The whole group is a mix of too tight and too loose. It will depend on how far I get tonight and who is at those mid level tables when I get there. I'm just trying to get ahead of the game before tonight so my head will be in the right place.

If I'm in this spot, I won't have a chance to try anything w/o putting too much at risk.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
Open push lite. If they loosen their range to call you, that's +EV for you and you'll get called when you pick up big hands too. Also, if you M really is low enough, the dead money makes up for losses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this has been my usual strat and may still be optimal. I'll just have to pay close attn to whose in the blinds and where the biggies are.

[WJL]

I've played a few of these at my local casino, and I know exactly the part of the tournament you mean. Here are the things I think are important to be aware of in this situation:

Know the M of every player on the table before every hand, particularly if they are short.

Try to observe whether each particular player seems to show an awareness of their M; many players have no notion. If they seem not to understand M, they will likely be playing tighter than they should, and you can steal from them, or avoid them if they push. If they DO seem to understand, extend your push/call range against these players and hope to double up. You're going to have to get lucky at least once with the worst of it to get to the final table, where things settle down just a bit. Good luck.

HoH Volume II has an excellent section on playing against multiple inflection points, and I would recommend it.

[Befolder]

[ QUOTE ]
I've played a few of these at my local casino, and I know exactly the part of the tournament you mean. Here are the things I think are important to be aware of in this situation:

Know the M of every player on the table before every hand, particularly if they are short.

Try to observe whether each particular player seems to show an awareness of their M; many players have no notion. If they seem not to understand M, they will likely be playing tighter than they should, and you can steal from them, or avoid them if they push. If they DO seem to understand, extend your push/call range against these players and hope to double up. You're going to have to get lucky at least once with the worst of it to get to the final table, where things settle down just a bit. Good luck.

HoH Volume II has an excellent section on playing against multiple inflection points, and I would recommend it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Very good summary of how I want to play.

What I know, looseness or tightness of a lot of players.
What I have yet to figure out. Who adjust to their M. I know one for sure who gets it, but I'm unsure of the others and it will be hard to figure out tonight overall, but I'll be focusing pretty hard.

I have HOH II and it's the only reason I can even ask the question. Great book.

I will be trying to navigate exactly as you said.

One thing to mention, some players (like myself before reading HOH II), have learned it's good to blind steal and will do so regardless of the Ms of the blinds. I've started to look for resteal opportunities against these guys if I notice an overactive player against the blinds.

Of course, restealing is risky business when they have a hand, but I pretty much may have to take that risk if the timing is right.

[WJL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've played a few of these at my local casino, and I know exactly the part of the tournament you mean. Here are the things I think are important to be aware of in this situation:

Know the M of every player on the table before every hand, particularly if they are short.

Try to observe whether each particular player seems to show an awareness of their M; many players have no notion. If they seem not to understand M, they will likely be playing tighter than they should, and you can steal from them, or avoid them if they push. If they DO seem to understand, extend your push/call range against these players and hope to double up. You're going to have to get lucky at least once with the worst of it to get to the final table, where things settle down just a bit. Good luck.

HoH Volume II has an excellent section on playing against multiple inflection points, and I would recommend it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Very good summary of how I want to play.

What I know, looseness or tightness of a lot of players.
What I have yet to figure out. Who adjust to their M. I know one for sure who gets it, but I'm unsure of the others and it will be hard to figure out tonight overall, but I'll be focusing pretty hard.

I have HOH II and it's the only reason I can even ask the question. Great book.

I will be trying to navigate exactly as you said.

One thing to mention, some players (like myself before reading HOH II), have learned it's good to blind steal and will do so regardless of the Ms of the blinds. I've started to look for resteal opportunities against these guys if I notice an overactive player against the blinds.

Of course, restealing is risky business when they have a hand, but I pretty much may have to take that risk if the timing is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

To try and figure out who is understanding M, watch 2 things;

Are they playing hands with normal raises, even with a fairly small stack? Anybody who just limps into a pot with M < 5-6 is probably not very M-aware . . . or he is trapping [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img].

Watch the showdowns closely for pushing ranges. Also, if they are playing SCs, likely they are not playing their short stacks well.

I'm sure some of the better players here could think of a few more ways.

[Befolder]

Nice work. I was thinking I'd have to wait until the late game to find out, but it's true that if they are violating their Ms a lot during the whole game, then I'll be clued in early.

Things like a lot of open limping where they can no longer afford to do that.