A little theory: you standard-raise from MP1. and...

[diebitter]

Okay, you like your hand enough to open-raise x4BB from MP1. A reasonable player in MP3 reraises to x12BB. It folds back to you. This is not a particularly tricky level, say nl100.

You're both x100BB.

What hands do you?

1) Shove all-in?
2) 4-bet (say 30xbb)?
3) Call
4) Fold

my answers are:
1) AA, and only if I'm 60%+ certain he'll call.
2) AA,KK most of the time
3) AA, and AK/KK sometimes. AA will be for trapping and intending to get it all in 1/4-1/3rd of remaining stacks on flop, the rest on turn. KK or AK I'll be wanting an A or K to flop, and bet out if they do to assess situation.
I also call QQ-99 for set value.
4) Fold everything else.


Any comments?

[Renton]

call TT+ AK, fold everything else.

Add hands to the calling range depending on villain. Almost never reraise, unless theres history that suggests rr is the best play.

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
call TT+ AK, fold everything else.

Add hands to the calling range depending on villain. Almost never reraise, unless theres history that suggests rr is the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Renton,

I can see why you don't repop with AA or KK. You may as well show your cards, right?

I really only play JJ-99 for set value only. Is this your take on, say, TT and JJ, or are you looking to check/fold to bet, or bet and fold to heat if you don't hit? Or some other play?

[crunny]

This is too difficult to answer without a range for hero and villain.

[Gobias Ind.]

3)If calling 99-JJ for set value, why not call down with all pairs if it's only 12xbb for set value? I'm honestly asking here . . .this may be a huge hole in my game.

Also, what % of the time does this villian C-bet here?

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
3)If calling 99-JJ for set value, why not call down with all pairs if it's only 12xbb for set value? I'm honestly asking here . . .this may be a huge hole in my game.

Also, what % of the time does this villian C-bet here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah I was being a little trite when I said just for set value. These are still strong hands anyway, so there's a little hand strength value in there.


One of the reasons I started this thread is up until recently I did indeed call a RR with any pair, but I feel it's a big leak. I don't think calling w/JJ-99 is a leak (or at least it's a smaller one), but I do know for flops like Q83 say, I'm happier to push back with 99 than 22.

[Kos13]

[ QUOTE ]
call TT+ AK

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I correct in assuming that this means you believe the average/moderate player 3bets with 99 but not 88? I'm asking because I usually call with 99 here, and I don't really see a difference between it and TT in these spots (your 99 may be up against TT, but you don't stack off with 99 in a 3bet pot on a low flop anyway). Is your average player 3betting with 99 but not 88? I always just assumed TT+ was the 3bet cutoff for your average player because "it's double digits" or something.

[Larude]

I think against most non-tricky players you already playing for set value with JJ: AK can be made 16 ways, AA+KK+QQ 36 ways. If you add some random other hands to the AK I think you just don't make it to the 36 ways of AA-KK-QQ combined. So JJ is the turningpoint I would say to call with for real set value.

Now hitting your set or better is about 8-1, so on average if you call you need at least to win 64BB-4BB(your own investment which is sunk costs; I see the blinds as rake) - 12BB = 48BB after the flop of him to breakeven. The guy has a stack left of 88BB; 48/88 = 55%, so if you hit your set and he doesn't continuationbet 45% of the time and you stack off 55% of the time this call preflop would be acceptable with any pair. Of course he will C-bet more often also with nothing, but you will also loose sometimes if you hit your set. My feeling is you need to stack him about 1/3 of the time to make calling profitable. This could very well be the case, opponent dependent; of course this is no surprise seen the fact that we have that range of 10BB-20BB for calling for setvalue.

[diebitter]

dammit, I'm going back to calling w/all pairs. It doesn't feel right, but it is.

AK is still a PITA though in these spots.

[SABR42]

Without history I rarely 4-bet here.

I agree with Renton that I usually call AK and TT+ and fold everything else, because I'm OOP. If I were in position I'd call much looser.