What to do when home/local game makes clear wrong ruling?

[rubixxcube]

Background: (Cliff Notes at End)
There is a local game run by 2 guys i know. 7 nights a week in a rented place etc... Not a home game, not a "club" but somewhere in the middle. They take 10% rake up to $4.

Other night was 5$/10$ Limit Omaha High.

Final Board Looks Like.

2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

End of hand 3 players in at showdown
Player A(who is one of the 2 who runs the game) Turns over his hand, which is 668X, slides the 2 sixes forward and says 6's full (all 4 cards are tabled though).

Player B shows a flush and mucks.

Player C says No good, shows hand 77XX and says 7's full.

Now dealer scoops the board cards and turns them over, but they are NOT mixed in with any other cards and starts to push pot to player C. Player D not in hand at all then says wait Player A has 8's full of 6's.

Dealer now stops pushing pot and turns board cards back over(there is no question about what cards were on board) and confirms that Player A does indeed have a better full house. Argument ensues. Player A(part owner of the game) claims he wins the pot as neither hand was mucked, which is true both player hands are still face up.

Player C claims that board was turned over/mucked and pot started to be pushed his way so its his.

Other owner is called in to make a ruling. Other owner says Player C wins since board was turned over and pot was started to be pushed his way. Thats the final ruling, Player A is mad but player C at least gives him back the money he lost in the pot.

Few things here, As soon as player A tabled hand i saw that he was miscalling hand but did not want to get involved. Would you have corrected Player A when he miscalled his hand?

Second, the pot was still separated, not mixed into player c's stack yet and it was clear that Player A should get the pot as he had the best hand and cards speak. Would you have spoke up that the other owner was making the wrong ruling?

lastly do you later tell the owners that they very clearly made the wrong ruling?

In general i like to stay out of disputes i am not involved in however its a little worrisome, especially for new players at the game if pots are being incorrectly awarded even after its clear who the obvious winner was?

Also KITN for the dealer for not noticing the correct hand when it was tabled.
By the way dealer is paid and gets tipped and is NOT playing in the game, simply there to deal, is one of a few regular dealers at the game.


Cliff Notes:
Cleary wrong player is awarded pot after incorrect decision by host/owners of the game? Do you speak up and argue for the player who got beat out of the pot even though you weren't in the hand? Do you approach host later to inform him of his bad decision?

In home games etc i am a little more lenient with rules but i feel if i am being charged a rake the game should run correctly and these 2 guys running it are very uninformed about some common rules and as well have no rules posted/established.

[Small Fry]

I believe every player has an obligation to ensure fairness is upheld. So if you play cards speak, assuming all cards / hands are tabled, then it is everyone's responsibility to ensure the pot is awarded to the rightful and correct winner.

If you would have spoken up immediately this situation could have been avoided. But you decided to "not get involved" and the situation went from bad to worse.

Now once the house has ruled on this hand I think you need to let it go. Arguing about it is only going to make it worse. But for the future you might try to get together with the operators to discuss, in a more neutral setting, some aspects of the rules and rulings.

Also keep in mind the slight possibility that The house rule against player A just because he is part of the house. Basically they're making the statement that if they screw up to their disadvantage they will not correct it to their advantage. If this is the case thats nice of them but I would still want to be sure this was the case here and that if it was two other players with no connections to the house the ruling would have been different.

[Rottersod]

I agree with what Small Fry wrote and I agree it's very possible that the house ruled against his partner because he is part of the house.

You really do need to speak up in this situation because once the hand is tabled after all action is complete it becomes "official" and shouldn't be killed because the dealer or the player misread it. Cards speak, not words.

[Taso]

I think it's rather unethical for the house to take a rake and play.


Other than that, terrible ruling. What does the direction the pot is being pushed have to do with anything? If everyone mucks except one player, and the dealer mistakenly pushes the pot to someone not even in the hand, and the board cards are turned over, does that guy still get all the chips? Obviously not. I would have spoken up right away.

[onetimeuse]

keep your mouth shut. If it happens to you and you get it peacefully, find a different game.

[rubixxcube]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's rather unethical for the house to take a rake and play.


Other than that, terrible ruling. What does the direction the pot is being pushed have to do with anything? If everyone mucks except one player, and the dealer mistakenly pushes the pot to someone not even in the hand, and the board cards are turned over, does that guy still get all the chips? Obviously not. I would have spoken up right away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% about the house and playing however the 2 guys who run the game are f'ing awful card players. Mondays is omaha and every other night is 1/2 NL and they lose so much money its crazy.

The game itself is so fishy. Lots of variance due to lots of beats however lots of big wins as many in the game will easily drop 5-700 a night some times.

I have done my best to keep this game secret [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Occasionally they make bad rulings and even though cards speak others seem to think you should keep your mouth shut when not in the hand..... So since i tend to always know what i have i stay out of hands i'm not in as i don't want to rock the boat.

I also think as someone else said they may have ruled in correctly so as not to look to favor the house guy.

[Khabbi]

[ QUOTE ]
Few things here, As soon as player A tabled hand i saw that he was miscalling hand but did not want to get involved. Would you have corrected Player A when he miscalled his hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Involved in what? At this point there would have been no issue as everything was peaceful at this point. If you had corrected his hand, he probably would have seen it then and thanked you.

Cards don't speak for themselves, someone's got to put the voice out there for them. I think it's ethically everyone's responsibility to speak for the cards.

Just think, if this was you making the mistake, how would you feel if you knew someone knew you made a mistake, but just didn't want to get invovled?

As far as your actual question. You now have extra information about this underground game so be prepared for an unexpected ruling if you ever have a problem.