Your Worst Poker Enemy: Intuition vs. Logic

[Big Pink Monkey]

Maybe this will lure Al back.

I think this is a false dichotomy. Intuition is really just your brain applying logic faster than you can articulate. Most of the time, when you have a "gut feeling," you can later identify the factors that influenced that feeling.

This also means that it can be learned far more than Al gives credit. In fact, intuition is the internalization of your learning.

When I was in high school, I took taekwondo. We did a lot of self-defense drills. They were highly structured. Then we would do a drill where multiple attackers would come at us and use any attack they wanted, often in ways we hadn't previously practiced. Yet, because we had drilled those basics so much, we were able to quickly adapt and find the right defense.

When I first read Super System, I was underwhelmed because Brunson repeatedly asks us to take stock of the opponent. Especially in NL, those big decisions make all the difference and he was telling me to use tools I didn't have. After playing for a few years, reviewing hands, reading books and discussing strategies, I have some of those tools and my biggest gains have come when I just had a feeling.

[kaah]

I believe its a healthy combination that makes me a player who is in the green.

[silver book]

I think it varies from person to person. Players should use whatever works for them at the tables...

[Wardfish]

I have been reading this book over the last couple of days and just logged on to the forum to see if there were any posts on this very topic. This one was top of the list.

I must say I am inclined to agree with the OP.

I guess by internalisation you mean that the logic processing is going on in the sub-conscious mind, before the result of the processing is pushed to the conscious mind. This would make it appear a lot like intuition, when in fact its the same process as if it had occurred consciously.

I read an anecdote about Stu Ungar that backs up this theory, told by legendary sport-bettor and top poker-player Alan Boston.

He recalled Ungar laying out a gin-rummy problem for him that although complicated could be solved by applying logic. After a minute or so of crunching the logic, Boston came up with the correct answer, impressing Ungar enourmously as nobody have ever correctly solved this problem before.

Just as Boston was feeling pretty pleased with himself, for impressing the world's best gin player, Ungar pointed out that he could instantly calculate the solutions to problems like this without having anybody break it down into chunks for him.

Did he do this by intuition or 'lightening logic'? I vote for the latter.

Its like the arithmetic savants who can multiply 2 ten-digit numbers instantaneously. Do they do this by 'just knowing the answer' or by calculating it amazingly quickly? Again I vote for the latter.

I note that in his book, Schoonmaker brackets Ungar and Brunson as intuitive players rather than logic players. Ungar, in the above anecdote, alluded to the logical processing of information intake. Also, in SuperSystem, Brunson describes how he called a bluff with J-high based on his "gut" but then described how he reasoned out the hand using a logical process.

I doubt that there are many successful poker players who cannot apply logic to situations to give them the correct answer. Even the apparently 'intuitive greats' rely heavily on logic, probably much more than anybody realises.

Just to clarify: I agree with Schoonmaker that the aspiring player needs to concentrate on developing his logical processes, as they can be evolved and improved, whereas intuition is intangible and unexplainable. I just think that its possible that intuition is actually "invisible logic".

[Big Pink Monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify: I agree with Schoonmaker that the aspiring player needs to concentrate on developing his logical processes, as they can be evolved and improved, whereas intuition is intangible and unexplainable. I just think that its possible that intuition is actually "invisible logic".

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I think you develop intuition by putting in the hard work of logical exercises away from the table. All the recommendations Schoonmaker makes will eventually turn into intuition.

[Crazy Porto]

this is some interesting stuff i also make a lot of dicisions by "intuition" when i just know what move to make without a doubt.

Untill now i guess i could not explain this by logic thinking.

But sometimes i just put my tournament life on the line when i call an allin with 35o for example and just know i'll win the race (wich i do most of the times far against odds) how does this apply logic thinking?

[Flip-Flop]

Good points and I agree with most of it but:
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. I think you develop intuition by putting in the hard work of logical exercises away from the table. All the recommendations Schoonmaker makes will eventually turn into intuition.


[/ QUOTE ]

I`m skeptical about the topic of developing intuition by doing exercises of some kind.
For me it`s more of the "you have it or you don`t" things, something you are born with, like Stu Ungar.
This is the simplest way I can think of to explain people`s talents:
The part of the brain that has a particular job to do on a sub-conscious level is overdeveloped.
In Stu Ungar`s case - the "apply logic" part.
In John Von Neumann`s case - the "crunch some numbers" part and probably few more parts hehe.
In Soccer top-scorers case - Well..since my English is not all that good lets just call it the "coordination" part.

It may sound too simple but that`s the way I see it and i don`t think you can train this. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Big Pink Monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
But sometimes i just put my tournament life on the line when i call an allin with 35o for example and just know i'll win the race (wich i do most of the times far against odds) how does this apply logic thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's just getting lucky off bad play. I'm guessing you just don't have accurate records of how often this works out.

I'm talking about things like reading people. For example, I once called all-in with middle pair. It propelled me to the final table. The guy I called berated me for stupid play, but the way it developed just didn't feel right. When I looked at it afterward, there were, in fact, a number of things that were weird: bet sizes, his aggressiveness before and after the flop, my impression of his play overall -- I thought he was a decent player and would recognize a good situation for a bluff. I thought some of this consciously at the time, but mostly it just didn't feel right.

[Big Pink Monkey]

[ QUOTE ]
I`m skeptical about the topic of developing intuition by doing exercises of some kind.
For me it`s more of the "you have it or you don`t" things, something you are born with, like Stu Ungar.
This is the simplest way I can think of to explain people`s talents:
The part of the brain that has a particular job to do on a sub-conscious level is overdeveloped.
In Stu Ungar`s case - the "apply logic" part.
In John Von Neumann`s case - the "crunch some numbers" part and probably few more parts hehe.
In Soccer top-scorers case - Well..since my English is not all that good lets just call it the "coordination" part.

It may sound too simple but that`s the way I see it and i don`t think you can train this. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're talking about aptitude. I think Ungar and Brunson have a natural sense of things. Amarillo Slim was successful in a number of gambling enterprises because he naturally understood the angles and how to manipulate people. I have had to train myself to look for edges in poker and I'm terrible at it outside of poker. I'm never calculating how to take advantage of a situation outside of poker. I will never be as good as those guys because they have a natural aptitude for it. However, I can develop my intuition to be better than it is now.

[Flip-Flop]

I just checked the definition of the word "aptitude" so yes, you are right that I was talking about that.
And I also count intuition as a natural born ability of the brain to make all kinds of calculations and analyses sub-consciously and faster then you can think and then sends the results as a "feel" to you.
I hope the last sentence made sense.

So I don`t see how I can develop something that I don`t really have a control over.
How do you develop intuition?