OK who CR's this turn.

[KitCloudkicker]

Live game (of course).

I have As7s in LMP. UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG +2 calls, 1 fold (wow), EMP calls, I call, button calls, SB 3 bets, BB calls 2 cold, UTG calls, UTG+1 decides to gamble and caps, everyone calls. 8 way capped flop.

Flop is T53 two spades. SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG + 2 folds (wow), i call (maybe I should raise?) and everyone else calls. 7 to the turn.

Turn is a red 8. everyone suprisingly checks to me, I check. next player (button), bets. there are 5 callers. i have no idea what people could be staying in with, but is this a value turn CR with the NFD?

[James.]

raise the flop.

as played, c/r the turn makes money. 20% equity with 17% being breakeven.

[jeffnc]

I think the hand with that many players is complicated enough that you're not going to get a very accurate math answer to your question. There are pluses and minuses to raising the flop and/or turn, but they probably mostly cancel each other out and the end result is probably near 0 EV. Raising the turn is thin value IF everyone calls and no one reraises to fold others. etc etc

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
as played, c/r the turn makes money. 20% equity with 17% being breakeven.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also loses money.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
as played, c/r the turn makes money. 20% equity with 17% being breakeven.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also loses money.

[/ QUOTE ]

if everyone calls the checkraise you are putting in 17% of the money, but hitting your hand 9/46 or 20% of the time.

it increases variance, but shouldn't lose money. worst case scenario is we are 3bet and not everyone calls, we are up against a set, or we simply don't get all the callers from our initial c/r. given it's live(generally looser more passive) game i think there's value in the checkraise more often than you would think. IOW, the pot's big and they are chasing whatever. it's a rare live player that won't call one more bet in a pot this size.

[StrictlyStrategy]

What about when we're up against two pair or something as well as another FD?

[ProfessorBen]

I like a flop raise. Even if a bunch of people fold, you and it gets 2-3 handed, you have the option of taking a free card on the turn. Otherwise, it's for value and most people who are calling 1 are calling 2.

[BigBadBabar]

if we c/r and someone 3bets i don't think everyone is coming along, and not all flush rivers give us the nuts if someone else has two pair or a set already.

i would just call here and not c/r.

[HoneyBadger]

A turn c/r would be thin. I don't usually do that; if 3 or more outs are tainted it's a money-losing raise. A flop raise, however, would be for pure value: not to protect your hand.

[James.]

[ QUOTE ]
What about when we're up against two pair or something as well as another FD?

[/ QUOTE ]

not many two pair combos(85, 8T) are common on that board. other FDs are possible, but are still going to be more rare than not.

i really think we need to be raising this flop given it's giant pot. once in a while it'll have the effect of winning the whole thing for us when we get SH and an Ace slides off on the river.