Some random notes from a Full Ring NL Lag

[diebitter]

mkay, a solid LAG game is the way to get the most solid winrate per 100 hands. It's not necessarily the best way to earn the highest amount of money per hour, because it typically necessitates actually watching the table, getting reads/patterns/tells on other players, and exploiting the hell out of their tendencies. Solid TAG strategies+ playing as many tables as you can handle may earn you better overall. Lag play is also the fastest way to eat away your BR too, so be aware and beware.

On the downside, playing a ton of tables at once might be okay for you to really get standard plays and situations embedded in your skull, but it will retard your progress to becoming a really good player.


So what's a solid LAG game? Typically, your LAG will have a high VPIP, much higher than 18 say. (I personally run at around 28-32 - with peaks of 80-70 on really nitty tables where I can exploit the hell out of timid TAGS - when playing my full LAG game, but this is probably considered more super-lag), but one thing that differentiates the good Lags from the maniacs is that THEY ARE ONLY LOOSE WHEN THE BETS ARE SMALL. If you want to figure out if a Lag is good or bad, watch him postflop. He'll often be aggressive postflop on any kind of board except maybe a very coordinated one (like monotones), but will simply fold to heat. This really pisses Tags off, who have been waiting patiently for their shot back. If you see a Lag make a mistake and stack off once, that doesn't necessarily mean he's bad, BTW. If he repeats, he's then most likely not a good Lag, make a note and remember what mistakes he makes.

Good LAGs are pretty good at postflop play. They will be watching people, and know the people to fold to, the people to push off, and the people to pot-control. (Lags will bet out often to stop bigger bets, and I'm not talking the piddly little minbets you;ll often see).

Lags are also comfortable extracting money a bit at a time from tight games, and will have a well-developed smallball game. Often the TAGs multitable and try and take big lumps out of each other, while Lags pick up the crumbs which the Tags won't fight over (those multitablers just haven't got the time to micromanage each game at the level required for decent smallball play).

So preflop, Lags will be either calling or raising with a much wider range than usual. Typically, it's going to be connected hands in some way, so probably in order of likelihood for a good LAG: big pairs, big cards (AJ+, KQs), pairs, suited connectors, suited one gappers, Axs. Some rate the Axs higher, and some hate playing KQ/KJ, and prefer hands much less likely to be dominated. To call a raiser, they usually read the raiser's tendencies, his stack size, and the way the board has been playing. Your good Lag more likely to call a raiser if:

- his relative stack is big (ie both the raiser and the Lag have deepish stacks)
- There are other callers in who are likely to come along even with a raise (and sometimes the raiser might be small-stacked, but these others might be deep enough to keep the Lag interested)
- His position is good (how important this is is quite player-centric. Some care a lot, some don't care at all as often they're looking to flop well)
- Favourable conditions of who might be coming behind/number of callers behind (A Lag may call an UTG from the button, but fold the same hand if in UTG+1)
- When the raiser is more likely to be stacked (If a really solid TAG player raises you, you very often just fold, as they're too difficult to extract from)

Notice the last point is very read-dependent. You really need to have watched a player to know this for sure.


Some Lags are aggressive preflop, some are passive. I mix it up personally, but passive is only okay if you're pretty happy with your postflop game. If unsure, aggressive is better, so if you aren't sure, it's best to always open with a raise.


I'll probably will add more as I think of it.



hope you guys get something out of this.

[KingOtter]

Interesting, because I've seen this from the other point of view... and when the LAG starts respecting my play I push back him a bit more than just when I have a hand.

Are the stats mentioned full ring or 6-max?

edit: doh, full-ring in subject title... I kin reed.

[Pyromaniac]

is this you (so to speak) on a really nitty table, then:

77.5/22.5/1.07 over 80 hands?

He was actually 94 VPIP over the first 25 hands (and probably got a few free in the BB, too), but his VPIP went down as the table got smaller. Is this typical?

He was hard to play against, even being in the pot so often. He'd bet scary flops but then get out if he met any resistance.

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hope you guys get something out of this.

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This is helpful to me as I'm learning while at FR, and it seems most (?) others are at 6-max. I haven't played 6-max limit, so I'm thinking I'd better figure out what I'm doing FR first before going 6-max?

[Grunch]

This is a great post. You've pretty much described my entire mentality.

One word of warning especially to new no-limit players. It's easy to lose you're bankroll playing a LAG style if you don't understand hand values, the importance of position, how to read betting patterns and a million other things that only comes from playing.

[MyTurn2Raise]

real solid stuff diebitter


for those looking to increase hourly,
I play a SLAG 22/18 fullring when I play that game

Basically, I try to do alot of the small stuff LAGs do (raising limpers, stealing orphan pots, put weak-tights to a big bet on the flop but slow down later), but don't have as many reads to really get all the advantages they do

[diebitter]

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is this you (so to speak) on a really nitty table, then:

77.5/22.5/1.07 over 80 hands?


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similar, but my agg would be closer to 2.5-3

[diebitter]

I mentioned likelihood of being able to stack someone as being important to LAG play. This goes hand in hand with developing reads on players (and by this I mean exploitable patterns). Lags are always looking for the sucker at the table, and when there is one or two, the focus of a Lag will be on stacking them. Sometimes the read masks the fact the sucker actually has the goods that time, and that's why you'll sometimes see a Lag seem to do something stupid like felt it with middle-pair, but sometimes you'll gasp when you see the Lag win in the same style. It looks like luck or just balls-to-the-metal, but there's method there.

Some examples of types of players I've picked up on at tables:

Someone who only overbets (10xBB) AK, but then can't lay it down to strong betting - This guy I'll try and get in with any two cards that aren't A or K, and EVEN Axs if we're deep enough.

Someone who can't lay down TP or overpair right to the felt

Someone who fired one on the flop whatever happens if they're first in, but gives up on the turn if their hand isn't great

Someone who bets hard holding the nut-flush draw - (these are quite tricky, as so many flops are two-flush)

I'll also be looking for maniacs and guys on tilt and will loosen up postflop quite a bit to them. This increases variance some, but it's worth it.

There's more, but I hope you guys can work out, without much explanation, once I have these sorts of reads on players, I can exploit them.


PS. In general, multitablers miss all but the grossest of reads or patterns, and this is one of the reasons playing just a few tables allows a significantly greater winrate/100.

[LearningCurve]

DB,

This is really good stuff. Even if you don't have the guts or know-how to play a LAG style, it helps to be able to spot your own weaknesses through your opponent's eyes.

I've marked this as a favorite and plan to continue to think about and experiment with these concepts.

Thank you for the insightful post!

[cockandbull]

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On the downside, playing a ton of tables at once might be okay for you to really get standard plays and situations embedded in your skull, but it will retard your progress to becoming a really good player.


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as worded, this isnt true. playing lots of tables helps you learn the way of the game. if you learn your times table as a kid you repeat over...doesnt mess with your math...

your much better off working on a basic idea of how to play, what works for you then moving on from there.

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So what's a solid LAG game? Typically, your LAG will have a high VPIP, much higher than 18 say. (I personally run at around 28-32 - with peaks of 80-70 on really nitty tables where I can exploit the hell out of timid TAGS - when playing my full LAG game, but this is probably considered more super-lag)

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i would hazard a guess this is writern for the wrong reasons. no way should you be looking to play 80/70 over a sample size bigger than a few orbits in a full ring.

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but one thing that differentiates the good Lags from the maniacs is that THEY ARE ONLY LOOSE WHEN THE BETS ARE SMALL.

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this isnt true either, good lags understand equity what ever sized pot they are in.

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If you want to figure out if a Lag is good or bad, watch him postflop.

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yup

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He'll often be aggressive postflop on any kind of board except maybe a very coordinated one (like monotones)

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i get what you mean, wordings wrong though.

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If you see a Lag make a mistake and stack off once, that doesn't necessarily mean he's bad, BTW.

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yup,

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If he repeats, he's then most likely not a good Lag, make a note and remember what mistakes he makes.


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again, badly writern. how often are you stacking off quickly in good places?

the rest of this post is in the sma ekinda vain, ideas are either bad or poorly explained.

sorry if this seems harsh, ive had a few and the tone of this post really annoyed me.

[diebitter]

okay, it was pretty casually written, but I think the content is better than you suggest.