Final table "bubble-fund"

Brocktoon · #1 08-03-2007, 04:57 AM

I played a tournament in a Casino (Taj) for the first time today and it paid the top 9 spots out of 80 or so players. They consolidate to a final table of 10 meaning that the first person out from the final table gets nothing.

To ease the pain of bubbling at the final table all 10 of us put up $10 all of which would go to the 10th place finisher.

I'm sure this is common and I was more than happy to throw in my $10 since I was 9th in chips and desperately short. However, had I been a huge stack looking around at a handful of "red-zone" stacks I wouldn't have wanted to essentially throw away $10 to the bubble boy.

Obviously the big stacks are giving up a ton of value here, basically they are handing a stranger $10 in a tourny where the buy-in was only $65 to begin with.

Maybe I'm being overly nitty, but if I were in the same situation again as a chipleader I don't think I'd throw in any money. Is this bad ettiquette? Am I wrong here?

***On a related note: How much am I expected to tip the dealers when they take $15 of my buy-in for the house, about 25% of the total prize pool (50+15). Shouldn't some of this money be going to the dealers? I feel some sort of gratuity should be built into the buy-in when the house take is such a huge percentage of the buy-in. What's a "normal" tip when you win a couple of hundred dollars in a small live tourny anyway? I had no idea and no one seemed to offer much of a suggestion at the time so I tipped what I consider to be a small amount.

#2 08-03-2007, 05:05 AM

Post deleted by *TT*

NevadaKaz · #3 08-03-2007, 05:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]

To ease the pain of bubbling at the final table all 10 of us put up $10 all of which would go to the 10th place finisher.

I'm sure this is common and I was more than happy to throw in my $10 since I was 9th in chips and desperately short. However, had I been a huge stack looking around at a handful of "red-zone" stacks I wouldn't have wanted to essentially throw away $10 to the bubble boy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Karma has some lovely bad beats in store for you LOL

But in seriousness, I would do ut because it is only $10 no matter what my stack. I realise you are giving up some $EV but it is +lifeEV.

Now when it comes to discussing chops, that is a whole other matter because more money is on the line.

Brocktoon · #4 08-03-2007, 06:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I realise you are giving up some $EV but it is +lifeEV.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the real issue. I guess its worth $10 to not be "that guy" who doesn't go along with some trivial courtesy that everyone else is participating in.

I suppose I would just throw the $10 regardless in the future. That said, with smallish buy-in tournys featuring almost insurmountable house takes to begin with, being obligated to put more money in bad is a bit annoying.

[Phill] · #5 08-03-2007, 06:32 AM

I wouldnt do it.

Eventually you start giving everyone who entered their money back and you just turn up, pay rake, then go home and watch TV.

There will always be a bubble boy. I dont get people who do this and i had a mini convo at the casino the other day with a guy who plays the tourneys more and it seems to come up in every live tourney.

Also i wouldnt tip at all if the casino is taking 25% of the prizepool.

MaverickUSC · #6 08-03-2007, 07:29 AM

Never as a big stack.

Devo

NickMPK · #7 08-03-2007, 10:26 AM

You should still tip the dealer no matter what the rake is, unless part of this rake is actually going to the dealers (which in this case, I'm fairly sure it isn't). If you don't want to tip the dealers because the rake is too large, don't play in tourneys with such a large rake. You can't seriously expect to make money in the long run in this sort of tourney, you have to look at it just as recreation and/or experience until you are more comfortable moving up in stakes.

The only problems I have with giving the bubble boy $10 from every other player is that then the 10th place finisher has to sit around for the rest of the tournament and collect $10 from everyone as they receive their prize. Cashing in tournaments in AC is already a tedious enough process that I doesn't seem to be worth complicating it even further for such small stakes.

TMTTR · #8 08-03-2007, 10:53 AM

Bad karma not to pay.

Last live MTT I was in in Vegas last year: $100 tourney, top 8 got paid, when we got to final table I was 8th out of 10 and had less than 10 big blinds left. We all agreed to put $20 in and give $100 to each of the 9th and 10th place. (We each gave $20 cash to the dealer because the house refused to adjust the payouts -- so the 9th and 10th actually lost $20 overall)

Turns out that there are stupid players in casino MTTs. Big stacks went to war with each other and I finish second. Even big stacks fall in these games -- particularly if blinds are very large.

Brocktoon · #9 08-03-2007, 10:55 AM

Nick,

You're probably right about the low buy-ins not being beatable, I was playing for entertainment and because the people I was with wanted to play a tourny. That said, I still don't like feeling like I'm being gouged. What is an appropriate tip when you play a $50+15 and cash for ~$300?

I honestly have no idea what the protocol is. IMO 15% is absurd. I was thinking $20 would be about normal and even that sounds like a lot when you compare it to the cost of the buy-in. I also think they should disclose what %, if any, goes to the staff.

WRT the bubble fund, there was no waiting or inconvenience at all. Everyone at the table took $10 cash out of pocket which the 10th place finisher walked out with promptly after he busted.

Cornell Fiji · #10 08-03-2007, 11:00 AM

I play tournaments and I NEVER make this deal if I am anywhere near first in chips (which I usually am given my style of play.) The deal is horribly -$ev for two reasons:

1) Chip leaders are less likely to finish 10th and therefore you are putting money in that you are unlikely to get back (obv -ev)

2) You should be very aggressive on the bubble because players are doing everything that they can to make the money and you can exploit their weak-tight tendencies. The most profitable/exploitable time in an entire tournament is when you are on the bubble. It is unfathomable that someone who knows what they are doing would want to give up that edge.

People will always complain on the bubble. If the tournament paid 9 they would want it to pay 10. if it paid 10 they would want 11... it is simply illogical to let yourself get pressured into making a deal like this.

if you were playing in a limit game and you had the virtual nuts on the river would you check behind because everyone else was checking and they asked you nicely to check behind?