NLCASH- 3-bet troubles

[Jiganti]

I'm having trouble deciding what my range needs to be to call a third bet when I bet pot on the button preflop. I'm calling with a bunch of suited hands and connectors and stuff, thinking that I'm in position and if I flop big then I'll felt the guy, but I'm pretty sure I am being too loose.

So, does anyone have a good range for calling a 3-bet preflop, on the button, against an unknown player?

[anibalk]

Maybe group 5 or 6 if he/she always 3-bet.

i don't know and i have same dude.

[MasterLJ]

Against a reasonable player:

KQs, KQo, AT+, all pp.

Against someone 3-betting too much I'd start 4-betting AJ+ and any pocket pair and start including suited connectors and suited broadway into my calling range.

[whaahhahahah]

I think this discussion needs to start with:

-the range that your average opponent's 3bets
-how your average opponent play the flop
-how your average opponent play the turn if you call the flop

[Jiganti]

Whaahhahahah, I believe I play the same games you do and the players aren't the greatest, but for the most part when I see a mediocre player 3-bet, they tend to bet the flop for 3/4 pot or full pot. How do I approach this preflop? If they're 3-betting say, 20% of my pot raises preflop? My raising range is usually something like, A2+, K6+, Q7+, J8+, T8+, 45s+, 22+. Should I just be dumping hands like 67s to a third bet? I just feel that it's close because I'm in position against someone showing a lot sf strenght, and as I said earlier, obviously if I flop a big hand I can make a lot of money.

[whaahhahahah]

what do you consider a big hand? two pair? a pair + straight draw type hand?

if you're going to call hands like 67s, you can't just play them in the hope of hitting a big hand. same goes for hands like 33.

if he's raising 20% of your opens, then he's not going to be felting his hand as often as you seem to think.

another factor to consider is whether they will adjust to whether you call or not. some players will raise x% regardless. others will increase or decrease how often they raise oop depending on whether or not they perceive that you are contesting them.

[cwar]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a reasonable player:

KQs, KQo, AT+, all pp.

Against someone 3-betting too much I'd start 4-betting AJ+ and any pocket pair and start including suited connectors and suited broadway into my calling range.

[/ QUOTE ]
What you 4-bet should depend on what hands you think villain will push all in with (lets assume he plays push or fold) , 4-betting AJ would not be smart if he 3-bet a lot but would only play QQ+ AK (not realistic I know) for stacks especially because you could call it. For example you could profitably call A9+ (just thinking about suited aces) against this light 3-better and 4-bet all Axs below A9 because there is minimal equity change between having A5s and AJs against his 5-bet range so obviously you should call the stronger ones and 4-bet the weaker ones.

[dd323]

I think about this along the way whaahhahahah does. I think this completely depends on what you opponent is 3-betting and how deep you are. Assuming stacks between 100 and 170bb however, I think it is a big leak to be calling with small suited connectors unless villian is super tight, and even then its probably close to an EV neutral play. Sure, you will win an occasional big pot, but a portion of the time you will flop 2 pair + and lose, and a portion of the time the villian will not have a hand.

That said, if villian is 3-betting abusively, then its probably ok to occasionally call in position with suited connectors with the plan of raising any flop that hits you in any way (including gut shots and whatnot). But what makes this a profitable play is that you think villian is weak, and you plan to often make a play at the pot. If you are wrong, you could still luck into a big hand.

However, against these type of players, in general I prefer to defend more often with high cards, so that if I make top pair I can shove for value. I like to sometimes 4-bet SCs and big hands as well.

I think a lot of people think the value of playing small cards is they make hidden hands, and I thought that too for a long time. The thing to realize is that small cards get more than half their value from fold equity due to bluffing, and if you don't have initiative with them, its a lot harder to play them profitably.

PS. This also applies to small pocket pairs (66 and below). I think in general set mining in re-raised pots is just bad, and when you bluff with a small pocket pair, often you will have just 2 outs when called..

[Jiganti]

If he's 3-betting with AJo+, ATs+, 99+ then what can I call with? Let's say he's betting the flop 85% of the time for 3/4 to the full pot. Is this enough information?

[whaahhahahah]

if that's his range, you can call and abuse him pretty badly.

he'll have a pocket pair of 88 or better 3.2% of the time. he'll have the rest 4.8% of the time.

if he's leading 85% of the flops, then flop texture is going to be more important than your hand.