Sanity Check, Flop a set... straight and flush draws hit on river

[Sphere99991]

Tournament, for some reason hand converter doesn't work, tried to make it look pretty. Did I play this hand correctly? This is limit omaha hi/lo, btw.

Sphere99991 posts the small blind of 300
Krispus posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sphere99991 [4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
Zima421 folds
TheOutlaw1 folds
Moonsin folds
Gooey911 folds
twiceontuesday folds
NLHEaddict calls 600
Sphere99991 calls 300
Krispus checks
*** FLOP *** [9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Sphere99991 bets 600
Krispus calls 600
NLHEaddict calls 600
*** TURN *** [9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] [6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Sphere99991 bets 1,200
Krispus calls 1,200
NLHEaddict calls 1,200
*** RIVER *** [9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] [5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Sphere99991 checks
Krispus bets 1,200
NLHEaddict calls 1,200
Sphere99991 folds

[sfgiants]

Stack sizes and the specific point in the tournament would go a long way in getting good responses. Barring any specific reads, I think you played the hand okay (but I am new to the game).

[Buzz]

Sphere99991 - I'd fold this hand from the small blind before the flop. It's tempting to play three handed, but your low is poor and I dislike hands with small pairs.

But then you catch a one out of eight chance when you flop a set. And you're sort of stuck in the hand. (If you don't want to play the small set, then you should not have played the hand in the first place).

You bet the flop and then bet the turn. Fine.

I'd call a single big bet on the river.

Buzz

[Sphere99991]

Yeah I guess come to think of it I have a big leak in my game in playing marginal/awful hands from the SB because it's cheap. I didn't want to call the bet on the river because since the 3rd guy in the hand called it became so unlikely that I was good... then again good pot odds to call and people in this tourney are retarded anyway.

So what's your range of hands to limp SB in this situation? I kind of thought 344Tds was ok.

[chaos]

[ QUOTE ]
I kind of thought 344Tds was ok

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this hand is garbage. It has little chance to make even close to the nuts and almost no chance to scoop. If you do catch some of the flop it is going to be difficult to know where you stand with a hand like this.

- chaos

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
So what's your range of hands to limp SB in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]Sphere - My range is variable, but roughly the same as from early position (eg. UTG). [ QUOTE ]
I kind of thought 344Tds was ok.

[/ QUOTE ]You're going to be out of position all hand long, with two players behind you, one of whom is voluntarily playing his/her cards.

If nobody limped, you might go for a steal, but anybody voluntarily playing the hand almost surely has a better hand than you and has position on you.

As far as your starting hand goes, the pair of fours is more of a deficit than an asset, you don't have a decent low, and you don't have any high cards. Being double suited is better than being a rainbow, but double suited is not enough of a reason to play a hand.

As simulated against two hands with random cards, 344Td is better (but barely) than either random hand. However, if we give one of the two hands an ace, 344Td fares worse than the hand with an ace plus three random cards.

You may think you're getting good enough odds to play the hand for one round, planning to fold if you miss a nice flop fit. But you're rarely going to flop the nuts with this hand and when you don't, you'll always be wondering where you stand, with somebody behind you waiting to pounce.

Buzz

[franknagaijr]

[ QUOTE ]

You may think you're getting good enough odds to play the hand for one round, planning to fold if you miss a nice flop fit. But you're rarely going to flop the nuts with this hand and when you don't, you'll always be wondering where you stand, with somebody behind you waiting to pounce.



[/ QUOTE ]

Chance of flopping a straight flush
1/17,296
Chance of flopping quads
46/17,296
Chance of Flopping A25, assuming 3 live of each rank.
27/17,296

Total Chance of Flopping the High Nuts
74/17,296 or 4/10 of 1 percent.

Chance of Flopping A2X, assuming 3 live of each
414/17,296 or just over 2 percent.

If have a strong possibility of getting 35 to 1 implied odds after the flop, you are correct to come in with this hand. You could knock down that number some if fold equity is high also.

[Buzz]

Hi Frank - Several things...

If you use 17296 as your denominator, then I think you also use

3/17296 for straight flushes and

63/17296 for wheels. (Numerator is 64-1=63 since you already counted the straight flush wheel). But all of those are not scoopers because of possibility of a tie for low, or worse, a flush or full house for high.

And then for A2X, if you're going to use 17296 as the denominator, I'd make the numerator 16*31. But those are not all for scoopers, sometimes even with ace-deuce-X, Hero won't make a wheel or even a low, and sometimes Hero will get counterfeited on the turn or river.

But more importantly, how the dickens do you collect 35 to 1 (or whatever they really are) implied pot odds?

Buzz

[franknagaijr]

Hi Buzz - I posted that at work in haste, and an hour later I realized the folly of only counting one possible straight flush, as there are indeed three, and that I should not discount any of the aces, deuces or fives unless I had a specific reason to believe the limpers held them. Point taken.

And yes, collecting a 35 to 1 implied odds in a limit game is nigh impossible. That was a tongue in cheek remark; I enjoy pot limit, where you can occasionally get the payoff to justify such an awful hand.