Betsizing!

[Jerro]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately...

I make a standard 3X raise for every hand that I raise, regardless of position, strenght of hand etc...

I just feel no can get a read based on the sizing of my bets this way

As you get deep in a lot of tourneys though it seems like a bit of overbet and I've been contemplating going for a 2.5X raise...

Also what are you thoughts to the advantages of the awkward raiser ie the guy who always raises odd amounts like 599 or 1444?

And finally I was wondering about the merits of pushing on the blinds when you have a big stack and they are relatively short as opposed to a standard 3X?

[bogey1]

I raise whatever seems to take the blinds. Late, 2.5x works, which is bizarre to me given antes are given incredible odds.

Odd raise sizes don't seem to mean much that I can tell. Some people just like 99 instead of 100 or some such.

And yes, shove the blinds in if they're small. The general rule is if you're pot comitted by their reraise, you might as well shove at them to begin with.

[Cornell Fiji]

Your post is too vague (there are too many variables to consider) so I will tell you what I generally do and you can take that for what its worth.

Early in tournaments I usually 3x everything (although I occasionally will 5x if I get AA within the first couple hands of a deep stacked tourney). Once you get later in tournaments and people are generally shortstacked they tend to get into push/fold mode and they will react the same to a 3x or 2.5x pf raise. In this stage of the tournament (which usually coincides with the introduction of antes) I generally cut my pf raise down to 2.5x (depending of course on the calling tendencies of the blinds and their stack sizes).

When I have an M of ~8 or less or when everyone left to act behind me has an M of ~8 or less I either shove preflop or I raise less with the intention of inducing and always calling a pf shove.

Obviously this is a general guideline and is very situation dependent.

[Jerro]

It was purposely vague...
I wanted peoples general philosphies and theorising on preflop play at different stages of the tourney....

For instance you alluded to your tactic of shoving with an M of 8 or less which is of course nearly universal post Harrington, but you raise less with your premo hands like 1010-AA...

I think this works against bad players but it gives a massive read on your play, especially if you come up against the same players often...

An observant player can then note that when you shove you don't have a big pair and that he can insta muck his 99 when you min raise....

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
I just feel no can get a read based on the sizing of my bets this way

[/ QUOTE ]

This also keeps your opponents from getting a good read on you as well.

Anyhow, don't your opponents have a calling range? Or are they just calling randomly with ATC? I'd call their calling range a "read".

[ QUOTE ]
And finally I was wondering about the merits of pushing on the blinds when you have a big stack and they are relatively short as opposed to a standard 3X?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they effective stacks behind me are 10BBs or less and I am going to play the hand, it is always for a shove. Regardless of my cards.

[Jerro]

That should read "I just feel no-one can get a read...
I was talking about my opponents... I don't know who else I would be talking about...

I don't know why you're talking about calling ranges and reads?
I was discussing preflop tendencies, leaks and tactics...
Not talking about specific hands....but maybe I'm reading your post wrong...

I agree with you with the 10BBs shove...

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
I have been thinking about this a lot lately...

I make a standard 3X raise for every hand that I raise, regardless of position, strenght of hand etc...

I just feel no can get a read based on the sizing of my bets this way


[/ QUOTE ]


What buy-in are you playing? In low buy-in tournaments, especially in the early levels, I wouldn't worry much about giving away information with your bet sizes. Go ahead and take advantage of your opponents tendencies to call too often by raising 4x or 5x preflop with your premium pairs. Build that pot preflop they will call you anyway.

Until you start playing higher buy-ins and/or with the same opponents often, you're overthinking this IMO.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
What buy-in are you playing? In low buy-in tournaments, especially in the early levels, I wouldn't worry much about giving away information with your bet sizes. Go ahead and take advantage of your opponents tendencies to call too often by raising 4x or 5x preflop with your premium pairs. Build that pot preflop they will call you anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is some truth to this, but thinking this way is, IMO, wrong for a couple reasons.

First, even though a large portion of your opponents are bad and can't see beyond their own cards there are thinking opponents at all buy-ins. Varying your bets in a consistent way will be picked up on quickly by them. These are also likely to be the opponents who play alot and you are therefore more likely to meet again. If you vary your bet sizing based on anything that gives away information they'll have notes.

Second, is if your goal is to get better, build up your bankroll, and move up in stakes why get into a habit or playing style that you'll have to break? While I believe it's true that your game will have to evolve in some ways this shouldn't be it.

My raises are sized similiar to what others have said (3-3.5xbb+1bb per limper decreasing to 2.5bb as effective stacks get small). I'll sometimes vary based on whim, not depending on my hand, but not by more than 1/2bb.

The new Full Tilt book has a chapter written by Chris Ferguson. In it he recommends a raise size that varies based on your position. While I haven't changed my approach that is something that might have some merit.

[hamnegger]

[ QUOTE ]


And finally I was wondering about the merits of pushing on the blinds when you have a big stack and they are relatively short as opposed to a standard 3X?

[/ QUOTE ]


game theory says its always good to give opponents less options. by raising u give short stacks options by putting them akll in they can fold or call period. so that is an ok strategy if u have a decent holding.

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What buy-in are you playing? In low buy-in tournaments, especially in the early levels, I wouldn't worry much about giving away information with your bet sizes. Go ahead and take advantage of your opponents tendencies to call too often by raising 4x or 5x preflop with your premium pairs. Build that pot preflop they will call you anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is some truth to this, but thinking this way is, IMO, wrong for a couple reasons.

First, even though a large portion of your opponents are bad and can't see beyond their own cards there are thinking opponents at all buy-ins. Varying your bets in a consistent way will be picked up on quickly by them. These are also likely to be the opponents who play alot and you are therefore more likely to meet again. If you vary your bet sizing based on anything that gives away information they'll have notes.

Second, is if your goal is to get better, build up your bankroll, and move up in stakes why get into a habit or playing style that you'll have to break? While I believe it's true that your game will have to evolve in some ways this shouldn't be it.

My raises are sized similiar to what others have said (3-3.5xbb+1bb per limper decreasing to 2.5bb as effective stacks get small). I'll sometimes vary based on whim, not depending on my hand, but not by more than 1/2bb.

The new Full Tilt book has a chapter written by Chris Ferguson. In it he recommends a raise size that varies based on your position. While I haven't changed my approach that is something that might have some merit.

[/ QUOTE ]


I disagree.

1) Optimal =/= unexploitable. Oftentimes an exploitable strategy (one that thinking players will pick up on and take advantage of) is also the optimal strategy at the low buyins (edit: actually, optimal strategy is also exploitable at high buyin tournaments too, especially live ones.) There are easily enough fish who will not be able to pick up that a 10x raise from you means AA and they will limp-call anyway with their AJo because they are playing strict level 1. Yea, Shaun may fold his AK to you when you make that 10x raise but in the long run you will make more chips playing optimally (by definition) than by disguising your hand through playing unexploitably (when you are playing against mostly unobservant opponents or opponents incapable of adjusting.)

2) I would play differently in a $10 than a $1000. A good player adapts to the game that he is playing in. That is one of the justifications for having different forums for different buy in levels. It is not max$EV to play in a $10 like you are playing in the Super Tuesday because you will be passing up the advantage that you have by playing against "special" opponents who limp-call, fear for their tournament life, and respect the squeeze.

In order to get better you should teach yourself how to quickly analyze and adapt to your opponents... you should not pretend like your opponents are better than they are and in this example you should not plain in a manner that is -ev because you think that it will be a +ev strategy against different players... typing this out it is strange to me that you don't see how silly it is to try to train yourself to play in a set strategy so that you are ready to move up to the big leagues... I am hoping I just misunderstood your post.



edit: I just want to clarify that my first reply in this thread is not necessarily an optimal strategy for LSMTT games. You should absolutely adapt your strategy to the game that you are in.