Continuation Betting: A glimpse of recent theory in my brain.

[john kane]

This is something I've mulled over.

If you always continuation bet say 3/4 pot, then your opponent knows this. Thus he is getting far better than even money to call preflop, as he knows if he 'hits' then not only does this give him the preflop chips but your continuation bet as well.

I feel this is why it is important to check down showdown value hands, like when you miss with A high, or when the board comes A x x and you have K high, becuase often someone will check-call anyway to see what you do on the turn if he has any pair. Unless you are often 2 barrelling, then he will not make this play.

Thus, the a single continuation bet is very rarely a good play. It fails to merge your good hands with your bluffs as the turn check/bet tells the opponent which you have. Also, they are far more willing to check-call when you are bluffing.

So I advocate either check down with marginal hands, or two barrel. Whereas with when you completely miss or hit, then bet the flop when checked to.

Given if you two barrel with marginal hands, as you are also doing this with complete bluffs and big hitting hands, then i think your fold equity becomes to low on your bluffs, plus you are liable to be semi bluff. Therefore I think checking is best with any hand with showdown value, and betting when complete trash you have raised with and with top pair, middle pair, overpair etc.

As for semibluffing, entirely opponent dependent.

Just my recent thoughts I thought I would share. For many people this will be old theory, which has been said many times before, but I thought I would like to post it.

Good luck

[jpsnow]

I dont like this theory at all.
One of the most important pieces of playing is pot control. I think when you start 2 barreling middle pair, top pair weak kick, ect then you are breaking this rule. You may make easy decisions for yourself later, but your also going to increase losses with your medium strength hands.

I agree that it is definately sometimes right to check down A high type hands, but this is not always the case. I think flop texture plays a big part in your decision here along with your opponent. For instance. It may be good to check AK -> AJ on a board like 10 6 5 as you can easily be ahead still and if your not he is most likely calling w/ low pocket pairs, ect. Checking here most of the time will be the most profitable. That being said you should never continually do the same thing too often, so you obviously should bet here occasionally to disguise sets later.

I highly disagree with a single continuation bet not being a good play. I think often this is player/read dependent. If the flop comes K 4 9, you bet and they call they are probably going to call another bet or 2. A hand like top pair is very likely here IMO. That being said there are obviously times to 2 and 3 barrel, but I strongly think that good players often give up after the first shoot and miss.

[Jamougha]

In game theoretic terms your strategy is hugely exploitable. You gain greater fold equity over multiple streets not because you keep firing but because you sometimes check behind.

[jpsnow]

That reminds me.... Sometimes you have to play your good hands bet check bet if youve been C-betting and giving up a lot.

[ebarnet]

yea this is bad to do all the time. anyone 3/6 and above will pick up on this so fast, and any good 1/2-2/4 player will pick up on it too.

However, this certainly is a play that should be in your arsenal- but really i almost do this randomly. there are a few little guidelines like if i have backdoor flush draws or straight draws so A3s on K56 with one of your suit, or AT on J93, but other spots are good too. Honestly, playing a certain strength hand a certain way every time is like the biggest definition of a leak there could possibly be.

[john kane]

thank you for the replies, i usually always try to respond to each post reply but this is a time when i dont really know myself how to reply, so i've tried typing out a couple of times, but then realised i dont actually know what to say.

this is definitely something i will continue to mull over.

the general problem i find is that whilst it is valid to say:

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One of the most important pieces of playing is pot control. I think when you start 2 barreling middle pair, top pair weak kick, ect then you are breaking this rule.

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and

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You gain greater fold equity over multiple streets not because you keep firing but because you sometimes check behind.

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the both also can be interpreted as that with your stronger hands you will have less call equity (if that is a term).

thinking about it i guess, and triggered by

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That reminds me.... Sometimes you have to play your good hands bet check bet if youve been C-betting and giving up a lot.

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that there is no set of rules you can apply, no golden formula of how to play postflop, as the set of rules in hands 30-60 must be different than in hands 1-30, as your image and history from 1-30 have now impacted on what is the most profitable strategy in hands 30-60.

for example, a play i always do after a while when ive tried bet-check-bet when a scare card has come on the river is do the exact same when i flop trips, and just pot the river.

anyways, whilst there is no golden set of rules to play the varying hands, i still feel there is a lot i should mull over.

[john kane]

one 1-30 hand move i like is to show a couple of bluffs, maybe one float and one check-raise on paired board (even if he calls and you check-fold river it is obvious you have tried a bluff).

although it is a very basic concept, bluffing early then tightening up, against the non-good regulars, i think it is a very effective technique.

[punter11235]

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Honestly, playing a certain strength hand a certain way every time is like the biggest definition of a leak there could possibly be.

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Why ? Sounds liek another slogan to me.

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So I advocate either check down with marginal hands, or two barrel. Whereas with when you completely miss or hit, then bet the flop when checked to.

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While it may be correct vs opponents who really peel ligh on the flop its not correct vs "standard player" (who call only if he has "somethign" and then doesnt change his mind to often unless there is something scary on the board).

[LearnedfromTV]

[ QUOTE ]

If you always continuation bet say 3/4 pot, then your opponent knows this. Thus he is getting far better than even money to call preflop, as he knows if he 'hits' then not only does this give him the preflop chips but your continuation bet as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because cbetting every time is dumb. We kinda had this discussion before in one of those hypothetical threads - would you rather always cbet or never cbet?

Yeah, if you really cbet every time, you are essentially be laying your opponent extra odds. Some opponents are bad enough that this doesn't matter, and some people may be good enough at two barrel and three barrel frequencies to cover themselves. But against a decent opponent, you have to mix in checkfolding/checking behind really bad boards (potentially saving for a turn bluff if possible) and sometimes checking stronger hands. So that preflop, when your opponent is thinking about calling, he knows that some of the time he hits he'll win nothing extra, and that some of the time he misses, you'll induce a bluff (or extract extra from second best hands) by checking somewhere that he doesn't expect.

This is just a thinner margins version of the big familiar idea of having hands in your strongest preflop ranges (reraising range, UTG raising range) that don't go broke to sets alongside the ones that do.

Also, as someone else pointed out, two barrelling every time you one barrel is disastrous, because it drastically reduces the number of hands your opponent has to trap you with to beat you. If he knows you're twobarrelling all the time, he can fold more marginal hands and floats on the flop and he makes it back and then some with his stronger hands. And if you recognize that and adjust, he doesn't have to float very often to compensate, because the profit for every two barrel he steals away is significant.

Following up every cbet is at least as bad as cbetting and always giving your hand away on the turn.

[ahnuld]

wow first pretty good AE Jones theory post. Plz dont post this, even though it should be obvious to everyone, it apparently isnt.