Data Management of Opponents at the Table

[carddown]

(This is a clarified, edited repost of a question from the beginner's section.)

I'm looking for a technique to aid me in the data management of my opponents in B&M games. The ineffective way I do it now is to observe the early action when I join the table and see who seems dangerous. This usually leads to me obsessing on the actions of 2 or 3 players and missing the threat from the other seats.

My tiny brain needs a filing system to handle the behaviors and betting patterns of nine other players. I'm sure some people are naturals at organizing this data, but I'm the kind of person that can't even remember people's names.

Here is what I think I should be doing:<ul type="square"> [*]Build an mental file on each of your opponents.[*]Scan the table and look for memorable features of each player.[*]Assign nicknames until names are learned.[*]Assign probable playing styles based on appearance.[*]Observe and analyze, continually revising and refining information on each player.[*]If someone is still a blank, probe for information with small talk.[/list]Am I on the right track? Any suggestions or reading recommendations for help would be greatly appreciated.

[SellingtheDrama]

Appearance is nearly useless.

Watch for opening actions based on hand strength and position.

Another factor you aren't tracking that I find very useful is intoxication levels - who's there getting drunk, who's drinking water....

[Percula]

You are not factoring in the most important part of all this, time.

First you need a lot of time at the felt yourself before you can accumulate enough knowledge to quickly size up the other players at the table.

Second unless you have a ton of felt time you are not going to be able to any great degree of accuracy "size up" the other players in the game within the first couple of downs.

Third each player at your table is very likely to change over the time of your play with them, not only over the months, but over the hours of any one session.

Just pay attention to the other players and the action. Do not put a lot of weight into any one event in regards to future play, but if it is a trend, then slowing start adding more weight to that action when determining your play in the future.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Holy cow why not just add in vpip and all that other online statistics baloney too? You simply can't keep perfect statistics and data on every player in a live game. There's so much more info available in live games. Also, players are constantly showing up and leaving the game. You'd be foolish to think you can categorize, analyse and memorize every bit of data.


Take notes if you must, but don't fool yourself thinking some system will allow you to become a computer. You have to learn to recognise who the threats are early, and learn to read players and trust your reads.


I put little credence in probing with smalltalk. If you need to resort to this, you're just as likely to be giving away info as getting it.


Al

[*TT*]

Nice topic. Somebody please send up the Mike Gallo signal, he is needed since this is his specialty.

[Bdidd]

[ QUOTE ]
Appearance is nearly useless.

Watch for opening actions based on hand strength and position.

Another factor you aren't tracking that I find very useful is intoxication levels - who's there getting drunk, who's drinking water....

[/ QUOTE ]

I play much better live with a few drinks in me. Smooths me out, calms my nerves and slows me down to make better decisions.

[Phat Mack]

If you are out of a hand, give yourself an imaginary one and play it. Observe the players in the hand and guess how their hands compare to yours by their betting behavior.

Every time there is a showdown, look at the hands, then review the play of the hand from the beginning. This is probably the best way to clock players.

Rinse and repeat.

Assigning nicknames to players will help a great deal. The more imaginative the nickname, the better.

If you want to track specific statistical data about the game or your opponents, you can set up your chips stacks to be used as a pseudo abacus, but that's a whole different thread.

[mattak]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are out of a hand, give yourself an imaginary one and play it. Observe the players in the hand and guess how their hands compare to yours by their betting behavior.

Every time there is a showdown, look at the hands, then review the play of the hand from the beginning. This is probably the best way to clock players.

Rinse and repeat.



[/ QUOTE ]

Very good advice. It is very difficult to get a feel for what the others are doing unless you see their hands. Pay lots of attention on showdowns and review the play, the bet sizes and what each bet meant from a player. I remember stuff better if I write it down so I keep a written journal from my live sessions. I live in a relatively small area and see the same players all the time. I find keeping notes on them gives me a mental rolodex to access when ever they sit down at the table. If you find a dependable tell on someone you can beat them down for a long time.

[otter]

I disagree. Sometimes you can tell whether a person might be action or conservative by the way they look, stack their chips, how they handle themselves and their mannerisims. If I don't know somebody I try to size them up by how they look and act and then when I have more information on them I may adjust my original read.

I also have a palm pilot and if I spot a tell or betting pattern I'll step away from the table and enter it in there. Sometimes I'll pull that out (or my phone) and read the notes I have on players as they enter the game. Luckily I play with the same players over and over

I remember reading a good piece of advice. The person suggested that after you play a hand against someone, try to imagine how both of you would have played it if the rolls were reversed.

[Mr Rick]

The stats I found most helpful from PokerTracker were VPIP and post flop aggression and to some extent pre-flop aggression.

So I try to get a feel over time of what players are entering too many hands pre-flop. Very important is which players are calling 2 cold, frequently.

What I look for post flop are calling stations or seriously non-aggressive players. Players who call on the turn without proper odds (like gut shots or bottom pair in smallish pots). Players who won't raise without the nuts. Often these are the same people playing too many hands...

If a player is raising pre-flop too much then I look at it as an opportunity to 3-bet with most any good hand, in order to isolate. I have to have great cards/position/pot odds to continue against players who rarely raise.

The other thing I look for is tricky/aggressive plays including bluffs. Players who do this tend to do it regularly.

I am fairly new to live poker and I don't believe that I can build a good "file" on everyone at the table. So I concentrate on who I think are the weaker players and assume that the others are tight reasonable players unless they have been tricky. And since I go to one casino regularly I take notes on players after each session.