Medium Pocket Pairs possible leak

[Nairb]

I am a winning player over 1251 tourneys and SNG's ( arount 15% ROI) but I seem to have either developed a leak or have always had a leak and it just now is becoming apparent, I do not know which.

When it comes to medium pocket pairs(77-JJ) I am finding myself losing a lot of big pots early in tourney. How do you generally play them in:

1. Early Position
2. Middle Position
3. Late position

All assuming you are the first to enter pot or behind a limper, no PF raises. For assumption sake lets say all stacks are relatively even and blinds are small, all M's are over 20.

Later with smaller M's(3 to 5) I know these become somewhat of a push-fold decision but I am getting killed early in tourneys with these hands. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[illini43]

Harrington on Hold'em 1 lists a good basic strategy for these types of hands.

Your starting requirements should depend somewhat on the table dynamics, but generally...

In EP: I limp about 80% of the time with 77-99 and raise the other times, I will limp TT about 50% and raise 50%, and with JJ I am raising most of the time.

In MP: I tend to raise slightly more with 77-99 and TT, same with JJ.

In LP: I almost always raise these hands up. If more than one person has limped, I might limp behind with 77-TT.

[zizazziza]

It really depends on how loose the table is.
EP: generally limp up to 99. Usually potting it with TT+
MP: still liping up to 77. Raising 88+ unless limped where I limp behind. TT+ im still raising
LP: Raising 77+ unless limped which then i will limp behind 77-99 and raise with TT+

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
It really depends on how loose the table is.
EP: generally limp up to 99. Usually potting it with TT+
MP: still liping up to 77. Raising 88+ unless limped where I limp behind. TT+ im still raising
LP: Raising 77+ unless limped which then i will limp behind 77-99 and raise with TT+

[/ QUOTE ]

This is generally how I'll play these now. In the past I was more likely to limp the bottom pair or two in Zizazziza's range instead of raising, but have found that widening my raising range a touch has been a positive.

If you get action on these you're more likely to take the pot down with a cont-bet in position on the flop if you've shown aggression pre-flop. Of course if you see a flop you'll have to decide how to proceed based on normal post-flop considerations (board texture, position, opponent reads, etc) rather than blindly throwing out a continuation bet.

Also I'm calling a standard raise in position or from the blinds with most of these if effective stacks are 10x whatever it costs me to call. I'm obviously hoping to hit a set. I'll also sometimes bet the flop if it comes down mostly low and the initial raiser checks to me although this is sometimes opponent dependent.

[Nairb]

I have not had much problem in late position. My problem seems to stem from not being able to lay down these hands to a raise after I limp in EP and when I do not hit the set and there are overs on the board. All stacks are relatively equal as it is early in tourney and M's are all in green zone. I guess it just depends on your reads. A possible scenario is:

I limp with 99 in 2nd position- first to enter pot
folds to SB who raises 4xbb
BB calls
Pot Odds and Pair compel me to call
Flop comes A Q 7 Rainbow
SB bets 3/4 pot
Have to lay it down.

I am sure this has always happened but it seems like I have hit a streak where it seems like this happens every time I get one of these medium PP.

In the above scenario with no reads except table seems conservative should I make a probe size bet after flop to see where I am? This is where I make most of my mistakes.

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

I don't know if there a hard and fast way I play them... but..here just some random thoughts.

99 TT JJ... I'm raising and raising from any pos almost all the time. I'm calling most bets if second in and re-raising with tens and jacks.

88 77 mix of raise and call. Usually dependant on my stack. If my stack is more than healthy I'm raising from any pos (3x bb). When average/somewhat short.. I'm limping.

In cutoff and button in unrasied pots... well ...I'm raising all these. I'm sometimes betting jacks and tens somewhat heavier as they are tougher to play, dependant on opponent and my "mood" I guess.

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not had much problem in late position. My problem seems to stem from not being able to lay down these hands to a raise after I limp in EP and when I do not hit the set and there are overs on the board. All stacks are relatively equal as it is early in tourney and M's are all in green zone. I guess it just depends on your reads. A possible scenario is:

I limp with 99 in 2nd position- first to enter pot
folds to SB who raises 4xbb
BB calls
Pot Odds and Pair compel me to call
Flop comes A Q 7 Rainbow
SB bets 3/4 pot
Have to lay it down.

I am sure this has always happened but it seems like I have hit a streak where it seems like this happens every time I get one of these medium PP.

In the above scenario with no reads except table seems conservative should I make a probe size bet after flop to see where I am? This is where I make most of my mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of raises are you calling? Huge? 3x? If your getting odds they can't be that big. So get in there.

With the ace on board I sometimes c-bet sometimes don't and dump. Need a weak opponent. If there's no ace... bet it and find out where you are.

It's always a tough spot. Some tourneys I've been bled to death by the break by playing 8 small pairs in a row and getting no love, especially on the last one that I shoved.

[dant734]

My strategy with pocket pairs (22-JJ)is to limp when the blinds are low. Raise when the blinds get higher. I just find that over the long haul they get me into trouble when I raise because I Cbet and theres one over one me and its hard to tell if I'm good or not. Maybe im giving off to much info by limping with these but it seems to work well for me. Now once the blinds are substantial amount I start switching gears and refuse to limp and if im playing one of these im raising. This strategy works well for me.

[Nairb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have not had much problem in late position. My problem seems to stem from not being able to lay down these hands to a raise after I limp in EP and when I do not hit the set and there are overs on the board. All stacks are relatively equal as it is early in tourney and M's are all in green zone. I guess it just depends on your reads. A possible scenario is:

I limp with 99 in 2nd position- first to enter pot
folds to SB who raises 4xbb
BB calls
Pot Odds and Pair compel me to call
Flop comes A Q 7 Rainbow
SB bets 3/4 pot
Have to lay it down.

I am sure this has always happened but it seems like I have hit a streak where it seems like this happens every time I get one of these medium PP.

In the above scenario with no reads except table seems conservative should I make a probe size bet after flop to see where I am? This is where I make most of my mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of raises are you calling? Huge? 3x? If your getting odds they can't be that big. So get in there.

With the ace on board I sometimes c-bet sometimes don't and dump. Need a weak opponent. If there's no ace... bet it and find out where you are.

It's always a tough spot. Some tourneys I've been bled to death by the break by playing 8 small pairs in a row and getting no love, especially on the last one that I shoved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I am just on a bad run. It just seems like I am losing way too many pots with these pairs. I am limping in almost any position, calling a raise if I have a read. With or without read odds make calling a pre flop raise of 3x or 4x BB almost mandatory.

I play a conservative game early. Based on the responses I think I need to raise with these more often to set up c-bet. That seems more +ev than calling for set value and then folding.

Thank you for the serious responses and I am sure they will help my game. I think the bottom line is I play these too passive and that makes post-flop decisions difficult. If I raise and get called or re-raised I know where I am. I think I am limping like 90% with these hands and I have no information pre-flop.

I am going to start raising like 90% in late position, 50% in middle, and 20-30% in early position.

[BigAlK]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not had much problem in late position. [bold]My problem seems to stem from not being able to lay down these hands to a raise after I limp in EP and when I do not hit the set and there are overs on the board.[/bold] All stacks are relatively equal as it is early in tourney and M's are all in green zone. I guess it just depends on your reads. A possible scenario is:

I limp with 99 in 2nd position- first to enter pot
folds to SB who raises 4xbb
BB calls
Pot Odds and Pair compel me to call
Flop comes A Q 7 Rainbow
SB bets 3/4 pot
Have to lay it down.

I am sure this has always happened but it seems like I have hit a streak where it seems like this happens every time I get one of these medium PP.

In the above scenario with no reads except table seems conservative should I make a probe size bet after flop to see where I am? This is where I make most of my mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you know what your main problem is. I'm not sure I understand how your probe bet question pertains to the scenario you outlined. There was a raise from the blinds after at least one limper (you). Raiser bet out on a flop with an Ace, in this case, or King. Without a specific read to lead you to think otherwise SB is saying he has you beat either by hitting the flop or not having to. When you play to hit the set you have to learn to hit the set or let it go when you miss in most cases.

A scenario where a probe bet might be in order is when you call a raise in position and the early position raiser checks to you. Is he trying for a check raise or did he miss and is willing to check/fold? Depending on your best guess a probe bet might be in order.

I'll also sometimes bet out or check raise when first to act if the flop comes rags making my pair an overpair to the board. I'm not sure whether this is a good line or not. It's definitely profitable when it works, but a higher variance line. Again, it depends somewhat on the other player and is generally operating on the assumption that the raiser did so with 2 high cards and has missed. I'll sometimes take this same approach (call in position and reevaluate) with medium-high pairs.