Live 10-25, KK very deep 3 handed

[ggbman]

So there is a lot of build up to this hand, i will do my best to include all relevant history of my image and villians play. Villian here is a wealthy business guy from Maine who apparently comes down semi-regularly he buys in for a good amount, and we start a 3 handed must move game with John the lawyer. In one of the first few hands, he limped OTB, john the lawyer completes in the SB, i make it 125 in the SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he makes it 500, john folds and i call, not reading him for very strong at all. I check call 800 on a 245 flop with what i think could well be the best hand. The turn was a 6 and we both check, river was an 8 and i don't see any value in a bluff so we check it down and his A2 scoops. 15 minutes later we 5 handed, Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] UTG, he calls OTB, one blind comes along. Flop Qx 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I bet 250, call, fold. Turn is the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], i check, he bets 700, i call feeling like i def. have the best hand. River is the 3h, i was kinda unsure of the best play, but i led for 1500, he made it 3500, and i called after some consideration. I scoop, he said he had A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5x, which i believe... and he felt like his raise was bad.

The next big pot we are involved in we are 3 handed, button is a total station/fish and limps, he makes it 125 from the SB and i call with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the button calls. 3 way flop of Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x, he checked, i fire 150, button calls, he c/r to 500 and we both call. turn is the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] he checks, i bet 1500, button calls, he asks what how much i have etc... and calls. I wasn't sure if he had a set or KK/AA with a diamond. Anywho, river is 7c, check, i bet 2500, button calls all in for his last 850 with Tx K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (lol) and he think for 20 seconds and folds showing me A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Ax. Before we get a few more people to join we get in a little HU action. There are some blind raises, some blind call for fun etc... The are two hanks worth mentioning without going into tons of detail. The first hand of HU i open A

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to 100, he makes it i call. I check behind a K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] X [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop, then bet 375 and 600 on turn and river duds and he folds, i show. The hand that get him a bit frazzled we are HU, he opens blind to 100, i call with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check and he checks behind.. turn brings an offuit Q, i lead for 100, he makes it 300, i chat with him a bit and call and then c/c another 600 or so on an offsuit river 6 or 8 and scoop the pot. Before the main hand takes place i also stack 2 other people with straights in pretty straightforward pots and snap off a bluff or two from him in medium pots. So this guy thinks i am good, and i have also been making tons of hands. Finally onto the hand in question: We are 3 handed, the button limps, i make it 100 from the SB with

K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], he makes it 300 from the BB, button folds, i repop to $1050 and he calls. Flop comes down

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I wait a few seconds and bet 1800, he calls after about 15 seconds of thought. Turn is an offsuit 9. I pause for a moment and ask him how much he has behind, and he tells me it's about 12k. My action?

Additional random info/reads

His postflop aggression is high relative to to his preflop aggression... (I.E. he splahes around/bluffs postflop a lot but hasnt repopped pre that much)

I think that this makes it less likely that has has 22, 33, or 44 but im sure he would some of the time and the fact that we are very deep and he wants to bust me means he prolly calls preflop after my 4 bet. So these hands shouldnt be completley discounted, but they should def. be weighted against.

I think he raises a better hand *MOST* of the time on this flop since it's duds, has a flush draw, and live players love to overprotect their hands, pot is already big etc... I would also think that if he was going to slowplay a better hand, AA would be more likely than a set here since he wouldn't want to give AA, AK etc... a chance a gutter.

I can also see him taking him one off on the flop with AK a lot, and possibly AQs or AQo. I'm don't think he folds AK preflop or on the flop too often even to this action, AQ is probably pretty mood dependant for him.

So i feel like i have the best hand on the flop the vast majority of the time here, i'd like to hear thoughts on the hand to this point and how to proceed from here.

[pnazari]

3500 and instacall his push. only way we are behind is if he has 99/AA, and i think he would raise AA on flop.

[Ansky]

i love a check here.

[luckychewy]

i just wanna say including all the history is awesome.

how do you think he plays tt-qq on the turn if you check? you said his post flop aggression is high relative to pf aggression, he splashes around and bluffs a lot, and that he's a typical live player who loves to protect his hand. i feel like he can't be floating here much at all, but i suppose it's within the realm of possibilities(ie - he will be floating some small non-zero % of the time). given all this and the stacks being only slightly more than 2x pot i think c/r ai is the best line.

[BobboFitos]

you explained the history very well, and it doesnt seem like villain is playing all that badly, at all. on the Q 7 3 flop where you called him down with ace high, did he show or muck?

i doubt if he didnt make a play on the flop he's going to float OOP then c/r the turn with air, so it's pretty safe to bet the turn fold to a shove and if he calls value bet the river again.

[ggbman]

Bob, there is a few reasons that i think villain is playing rather poorly. First of all, i think his value raise with a straight on the three flush, paired board there is pretty terrible, especially given the line i took. I think that folding should be a serious consideration in that spot, and obviously calling without knowing me well can't that bad, but raising and expecting worse hands to call seems to indicate that he overvalues hands and has a shaky thought process.

He mucked in the A5 hand, the reason that i found that hand to be pretty bad is because he had literally never checked behind the flop with a pair to this point (unless it was some underpaid that he was just folding on the turn) So giving me a free look at the a turn where i can improve and then bluff a card which obviously did not him, where he also has to invest more to make the bluff with a far more fishy line, indicates some fundamental flaws in logic IMO.

Also one of the bluffs i snapped off that i alluded too... I open KK to 125 or something PF, we take a QQ6 flop HU, he checks i check. Turn is a 7, check i bet 175, he min raises i call and snap call when he bets 800 on a river A, and scoop. So i think he takes pretty transparent lines and gets stubborn with his bluffs. Also note that in the AA he thought about calling the river, and i know that i did not include this is the OP, but he told me he thought about shoving the turn in that hand (Where i have 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]) he thought about shoving the turn as a semi-bluff where i have 10k behind and the T, J, and Q of diamonds are all on the board.

So the point of this is, i don't think he is absolutley horrible or anything, he just makes too many mistakes and compounds them the way you would a marginally bad player to. So the pot is 6k on the turn, how much do you want to bet? Also can you or anyone expand of your thoughts a bit more here. I mean i know what i think his range is etc... but the reason I included this much history is so posters can make better educated guess here... I mean if he has QQ, JJ here, so you anticipate that this type of player will call a turn bet? If so, is the size relevant? Will he feel like smaller bets are trying to price him in, would he find bigger bets fishy and desperate? With this type of history, how do we think he would react to a turn check with various hands in his range? This is the kind of stuff i want to explore more, as online i don't many of us find ourself with 600 BB stacks too often where there is so much room for play, and i want to hear some speculation as to what happens in some of these situations

[ggbman]

[ QUOTE ]
i love a check here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can obviously think of merits to this, but you still need to expand a but for me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You are going for a c/r all-in? If he bets 3kish into a 6k with 9k behind, do you think he will call pushes with a worse given the strength of that line? Do you think if he bets a smaller amount, there is merit to calling and insta-checking the river to induce bluffs and control the pot a bit more.

A lot of what i want to explore here hinges on

1.) Given the history, is there going to be a room for a fold here given the pot and effective stacks?
2.) If not, what is the best way to get value/induce bluffs?
3.) If folding will be a possibility at some point, how can we get the most information cheaply?
4.) If i bet, would he ever shove worse hands like QQ?

This is the kind of stuff i feel needs to be explored here.

[luckbox666]

I think the best play is continue betting. He is capable of folding to a c/r AI, and you would make the most profit getting him to call 3k or 3500 because it leaves him the option of going AI as well, thinking there is a reasonable chance you will fold for over 6k more (if he has TT-QQ and thinks it is good). If a scare card (A,Q,5,J?) doesn't hit the river, you shove. I don't see folding the turn as an option. He seems rather frustrated, and very capable of going AI with a weaker hand.

AA is the only real concern, but I dont think he has the restraint to just call the r/r PF. Also, his line doesn't seem right for a set. I think he would raise a set on the flop considering how strong you have played, and to avoid giving AA or AKs a chance to catch up cheaply.

if you check you have to call a bet and now you really have no idea where he is at by the river which can come one of many "scarecards" that may make you give up the best hand to a large bet.

i prefer a 1/2 to full pot bet on turn most likely with intention to felt vs a shove if you think he'll move in with JJ/QQ on the turn rather than call...

i assume this is your first 4 bet of the session though and if villian is at all decent he will have red flags waving telling himself that you have a HUGE hand so it obv wouldnt be smart to move in with JJ/QQ in his spot vs a turn bet you definately can't discount it since he has shown that he is capable of overvalueraising hands in spots that are not appropriate.

if you check, it is with intention to call any bet and probably check again on river or vbet river if he checks behind turn. it's not too bad since it is best for pot control vs worse hands but i really think we are ahead here a lot more than we are behind so it's better to lead again.

[TxRedMan]

nice post grim.