10/20 - KK - Hand protection + Value Raise + Fold Equity??

[Heisenb3rg]

SB is loose passsivish (not calling station)
CO is a solid TAG who knows im 2+2 and knows I know he knows im 2+2. (Levels are involved)

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO caps</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12SB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9BB, 3 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>

[admiralfluff]

In these situations the largest magnitude mistakes will come from the fish. This means you should target your play to maximize against the fish, which means 3betting the flop. Like always. Calling is viable HU, but when it's 3handed with a bad player, I absolutely always jam this flop, and I don't think it's close.

I also think if you're gonna do this, the turn b3b is tARDO, because him raising lets the fish make more good folds, and once he raises we're pretty close to even against his range.

I would 3bet the flop always. Given your line, I would c/r the turn always. I really hate the way you played this hand.

[Heisenb3rg]

He wasnt a calling station, I was saying loose passiveISH, meaning he was okay, but not horrible.. Probabily like 40/10 something like that..

He's not cold calling with QJ here... I stoved against a passive players range (bunch of suited connecter hands, anything with a gutshot or better, took away AA/KK/QQ) and JJ+, our equity is about 41% on the flop and could change signicantly on the turn. If I 3-bet the flop, im getting no action at all on the turn unless im behind.

On the turn, im trying to get the passiver player to make bad folds not good ones.. Most hands are drawing to a chop, likely a gutshot straight and/or two pair draw.

When he raises the turn, I can't see the CO range not still being JJ+, and there's no way he can 4bet aces here. CO will likely find a fold with JJ/QQ (INCORRECTLY if its on the turn), but also may lay down in a huge pot with aces.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
also may lay down in a huge pot with aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

i used my etch-a-sketch to draw a picture for you

[danzasmack]

word to the bird

if he knows you know he knows and he knows then he knows you know you think he knows that knowing that thinking he knows folding aces is bad

overthinking this game is not a good idea

[Tryptamean]

Miles u need etch a sketch lessons from this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYM__s3R5q0

[Heisenb3rg]

While I should be insulted, the sheer awsomeness of that sketch makes me nothing but feel p0wned...

[geormiet]

I don't like this at all. To start with, I am checking any flop almost 100% after that pf action.

Also, you are basically giving your opponent a good way to get off cheap if he wants, or make you pay the max if he wants. If you just c-r the flop you will be in control of the hand.

[Heisenb3rg]

You dont think there is a lot of value in hand protection, trying to knock the player with a loose range out of a terrible flop like this??

The reason I posted this is, I strongly deviated my play from the standard because I

a) knew CO's tight range totally missed the board, and I can play my hand easily against his range.
b) this is a terrible board against a loose range in a massive pot. I want that player out of the hand... I could get into many sticky situations if bad cards come up and hes still in the pot, forcing me to make BIG mistakes.

I dont understand how you can call my play awful without downplaying the value of hand protection.

I certainly have an equity edge to get agressive on the flop, but it definitly is not a large equity edge. I deviated my play from the standard because I thought maximizing the chances of winning the pot outweighed the value of pushing a tiny equity edge.

The fact no one has even mentioned hand protection makes me skeptical anyone has even critically analyzed the situation before posting, instead of just giving the standard auto pilot way to play most flops with an overpair...

[geormiet]

Im not sure i understand what you are trying to protect against. If you are ahead you are often against a combined 2-8 outs or so. Build a good multiway pot, trapping the weak player. Don't knock out the guy drawing nearly dead and leave yourself up against a possible better hand.

Also, this IS a standard overpair situation...i don't see why it shouldn't be analyzed as such.