Hurts to "press" and "pull"

[Korch]

So my problem with my shoulder extends now to two exercises that have always been incomfortable (un-natural feeling) for me. The presses (like military press) and the pull downs on a bar that go behind my back.

One of the first times in my gym a trainer gave me some advice b/c. He said you've really got to build up your back, it looks like your back muscles are crap and your chest (benching, etc.) looks tight and it messes with your posture. You've got to have some balance to be fit.

Perhaps this imbalance is what's causing me some trouble with my presses. Unfortunately, I need to take it easy on the presses and take it slow (so I don't injure myself). All the while i'm still doing ballz-out work on the other excercises I was doing before. How am I going to be able to correct the imbalance when I have to do really small weights on my weak muscles (for fear of injury, not b/c they're simply weaker)?

[Colt McCoy]

1) Stop talking to gym trainers. Most of them are idiots, and I seriously doubt this imbalance has anything to do with your shoulder problem. And you're way too new at this to start worrying about imbalances. Just do the standard 5x5 or Rippetoe.

2) Why are you doing presses and pulldowns behind your neck?

3) Why are you doing pulldowns at all? They're a lazy man's pull up.

4) Are you deadlifting? Heavy deads will do a lot more for your back than pulldowns.

edit: nm on the deads. I recall you had a whole deadlift thread. Keep doing them.

[Korch]

I knew I should have made a note as to why I was doing pull downs. Don't worry Colt, your posts lead me to purchase Starting Stength and I do something very similar to his starting strength plan (A - squat, bench, dead B - squat, military press, row). Thing is, on my B day if I can't press I need to do something else. I like my A day, but my B day feels weak.

I do have a noticeable "hunch" in my posture and what this trainer said coincided very closely with the "Neanderthal no more" articles on whatever that bodybuilding site is. I also have other reasons to believe this is a very qualified trainer.

Some of those "Neanderthal no more" exercises are more isolation and less meaty than the Rippetoe stuff and I only add them on in addition and in moderation.

Does a pull-up work my back like those pull downs to that go behind your head?

[Colt McCoy]

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I do have a noticeable "hunch" in my posture and what this trainer said coincided very closely with the "Neanderthal no more" articles on whatever that bodybuilding site is.

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I'm not doubting that. Lots of people have bad posture and muscular imbalances. It doesn't mean they need to go screwing around with specific movements to try to fix them. If you're doing Rippetoe, the basic plan will work most things like that out over time. If you've been doing Rippetoe a few months and are still screwed up, then you might add some ancillary stuff to try to correct, but in the beginning you're just adding stuff you might not need to that may detract from the rest of what you want to accomplish. This is what I'm talking about!

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I also have other reasons to believe this is a very qualified trainer.

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Um...

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Some of those "Neanderthal no more" exercises are more isolation and less meaty than the Rippetoe stuff and I only add them on in addition and in moderation.

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What do you consider moderation? If you're adding more than say 3 sets a week, it's probably not moderation.

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Does a pull-up work my back like those pull downs to that go behind your head?

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Like I said, pulldowns are just a lazy man's pullup. They're a far superior back exercise. And stop doing stuff behind your head. That's very probably why your shoulder hurts.

[Korch]

re pull ups, I can't do any yet, but there's an assistance machine i can use.

He's a better formulation of my question: On my B day, I can't do the press for any signicant wait at this point. This isn't b/c I 'm weak, I think it's some sort of shoulder thing that will likely take care of itself over time.

What can you recommend I use to replace my heavy press on my B day? (i'll still do a few sets at lighter weight for theraputic purposes) As you've said (in your Semi rant "Don't mess with it") I'm not qualified to make changes/substatutions. Just name it, I'll do it instead.

Thanks.

[Colt McCoy]

ok ok I gotcha. Pulldowns are fine if you're trying to build up to pullups. However, they're not at all a substitute. Keep greasing the groove on the pullups. Do negatives, do them assisted. Work on them every day GTG style.

If you've got a shoulder problem, just let it heal before you do anything that will screw it up worse. When it's healed, go back to the overhead press, but not behind your head.

Try this: Pretend you're doing an overhead press with a barbell in your hands. With your elbows bent on the down position, push your arms way back as though you were doing them behind your head. You should be able to feel the strain on your shoulder joints. That's not good. The strain should be on the muscle, not the joint.

Edit: There's debate as to whether it's dangerous behind the head or not. I'm not debating it is or isn't. But if you're already having shoulder problems, this is definitely something that could be a contributing factor.

[Korch]

GTG style? Do you suggest I try these pullups on B day if they don't hurt my shoulder? (they may not be a problem, i'll have to see) I'd be more than happy to do bench instead of 3x a week isn't too much.

Try this: Pretend you're doing an overhead press with a barbell in your hands. With your elbows bent on the down position, push your arms way back as though you were doing them behind your head. You should be able to feel the strain on your shoulder joints. That's not good. The strain should be on the muscle, not the joint.

That actually doesn't hurt my shoulder. This position hurts. Say you put your gym bag into the driver side rear seat. Then go you go into the driver's seat and drive. You realize you forgot your protein shake in the bag and want to take it out so you can drink it in the car. You try to reach back and get it with your right hand. That hurts my shoulder.

[thirddan]

google "grease the groove" you should find an article by pavel about trying to increase pullups...basically you do them all the time and you get better, shocking [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Colt McCoy]

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GTG style? Do you suggest I try these pullups on B day if they don't hurt my shoulder? (they may not be a problem, i'll have to see) I'd be more than happy to do bench instead of 3x a week isn't too much.

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Yeah, if bench doesn't hurt, try that instead of the overhead press.

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Try this: Pretend you're doing an overhead press with a barbell in your hands. With your elbows bent on the down position, push your arms way back as though you were doing them behind your head. You should be able to feel the strain on your shoulder joints. That's not good. The strain should be on the muscle, not the joint.

That actually doesn't hurt my shoulder. This position hurts. Say you put your gym bag into the driver side rear seat. Then go you go into the driver's seat and drive. You realize you forgot your protein shake in the bag and want to take it out so you can drink it in the car. You try to reach back and get it with your right hand. That hurts my shoulder.

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Well those are basically the same position if I described it better. It puts the shoulder in a weak position. Some people can do it with no problems and some can't. FWIW years ago i hurt my shoulder badly doing a [censored] pec dec of all things. It does the same thing, pulls your elbows back behind your shoulders.

[Thremp]

Do those "workouts" on some website (T-Nation).

If you have terrible posture, which I assume you do. Look into it before you hurt yourself or reinforce it by skipping exercises that hurt. Also see a doctor obv before you start this to make sure you don't have some sort of bone deformity.