I don't get it!?

[UtzChips]

In Stox's book, he says a loose/passive player limps UTG and it's folded to you on the button and you have A7o.

You should raise, because you have a good equity edge against UTG; decent chance of getting it h/u; will know where your at, as UTG will only play strong postflop with good made hands.

So I fire up pokerstove, and give UTG 45% range.....nope; that isn't going to do it. You have to have UTG limping with 54.6% of all holdings for A7o to have 51.08% win equity.

Now, the big blind should be calling, getting 5.5:1, (as he knows UTG isn't 3-betting), with any suited (as it's only 5.6:1 to flop a flush, flush draw, two pair, trips, a boat, or quads with 2 suited that don't make a straight); along with any 2 broadway cards, any pair, and that's 38.5% of all holdings.

So, at least 1 out 3 times, you're up against 2 opponents. And guess what....it's a race against BB, and he's winning right now on my pokerstove by about 1.4%. A7o's equity right now, 3 way; is 35%; 2% edge; but some of that is a tie. Haven't stopped it yet, cause it's not even at 2% done yet.

A7o sucks big time when the flop is Q95 rainbow and it's a bet to you. BB could bet betting with T8 suited with a gutshot and backdoor flush draw. UTG folds, you call?
Turn K of BB's suit, he bets.............your turn.
You got the best hand. Whatcha gonna do?

I don't get it. A7 offsuit sucks. Doesn't it? Or is me that sucks? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
In Stox's book, he says a loose/passive player limps UTG and it's folded to you on the button and you have A7o.

You should raise, because you have a good equity edge against UTG; decent chance of getting it h/u; will know where your at, as UTG will only play strong postflop with good made hands.

So I fire up pokerstove, and give UTG 45% range.....nope; that isn't going to do it. You have to have UTG limping with 54.6% of all holdings for A7o to have 51.08% win equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
Most loose passive limpers wont have big aces or big pairs so you need to skew their range heavily in your favour.

[sethypooh21]

The equity edge assumes dead blind money. And you are MASSIVELY underestimating the value of position, regardless of BB calling.

Yeah, A7o sucks on a q95r flop. But that's where position comes into play. Ok, you got some money in good, the flop sucked, fold, next hand. Just compare the situation to if you raised a7o utg, LP button cold called and BB came along. Q95 flop, what do you do if BB bets? What if he checks?

Acting last allows you to extract value/steal pots while saving bets when hopelessly beat. For this reason, analyzing the hand 'hot and cold' is really missing a great deal of the point.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Stox's book, he says a loose/passive player limps UTG and it's folded to you on the button and you have A7o.

You should raise, because you have a good equity edge against UTG; decent chance of getting it h/u; will know where your at, as UTG will only play strong postflop with good made hands.

So I fire up pokerstove, and give UTG 45% range.....nope; that isn't going to do it. You have to have UTG limping with 54.6% of all holdings for A7o to have 51.08% win equity.


[/ QUOTE ]
Most loose passive limpers wont have big aces or big pairs so you need to skew their range heavily in your favour.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. My bad. I don't play any higher than 1/2. I was thinking about the guys I run into that play 50-70% of all holdings and NEVER/EVER open/raise. I mean never. Most don't 3 bet preflop either. You're almost always waiting until the turn to find out how strong they are. Only when the flop is highly coordinated with str8/flush draws are they getting aggressive with their AA/KK.

[StellarWind]

I often make this raise. You are not considering all of my advantages.

1. I have position which often gains or saves me a bet.

2. I play much better than Villain and will gain or save many undeserved bets postflop.

3. Your PokerStove computation neglects to consider that most hands that dominate me come in with a raise and not a limp. Redo it with AA-99 and AK-AT removed from UTG's range.

4. Dead money in the blinds compensates me for taking slightly the worst of it versus UTG.

5. All I have to do is approximately breakeven for this hand to be worthwhile. Raising all the time and showing down some jackass hands is very good for my image.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
The equity edge assumes dead blind money. And you are MASSIVELY underestimating the value of position, regardless of BB calling.

Yeah, A7o sucks on a q95r flop. But that's where position comes into play. Ok, you got some money in good, the flop sucked, fold, next hand. Just compare the situation to if you raised a7o utg, LP button cold called and BB came along. Q95 flop, what do you do if BB bets? What if he checks?

Acting last allows you to extract value/steal pots while saving bets when hopelessly beat. For this reason, analyzing the hand 'hot and cold' is really missing a great deal of the point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. The two of you helped a lot.

[stoxtrader]

you are including his strongest holdings in his range which you need to throw out because he would raise those.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
I often make this raise. You are not considering all of my advantages.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I imediately jumped on the thought of the guys who never open/raise in EP but see 50-70% of the flops and call a raise and you don't find out until they get a chance to 3 bet the flop or ck/raise the turn just how strong they are.
Those guys are very annoying.

I did some stoving without the big pairs and AK and it's much better. So a loose/passive guy UTG who raises 5-10% is your target with A7o.

[ QUOTE ]
1. I have position which often gains or saves me a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking in pokertracker for A7o I played on the button. I found one where the CO limped & called my raise.
Flop: KQT rainbow.
Villain cks; I bet; he calls.
Turn: T
villian cks/ I ck.
River: 3 no flush
villain bets. I, as I often do, surmise that he's trying to take the pot, and call cause I've got an ace; villain, well, he's got K7. It wasn't even suited. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
2. I play much better than Villain and will gain or save many undeserved bets postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the key....U DO. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
3. Your PokerStove computation neglects to consider that most hands that dominate me come in with a raise and not a limp. Redo it with AA-99 and AK-AT removed from UTG's range.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did. It's much better. Now if I could just play better than villain. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
4. Dead money in the blinds compensates me for taking slightly the worst of it versus UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Understood.

[ QUOTE ]
5. All I have to do is approximately breakeven for this hand to be worthwhile. Raising all the time and showing down some jackass hands is very good for my image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point. Thanks for replying.

[UtzChips]

[ QUOTE ]
you are including his strongest holdings in his range which you need to throw out because he would raise those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well hi there Nick! The other guyz beat you to it.
It appears your info in your book just might be a few levels higher than my level of thinking. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Not as high of a level as the Mathematics of Poker, that's collecting dust (thank god I only paid for that one with FPPs), but ah, it's giving me a helluva lot to think about. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[sebastien]

my standard range to raise one open limper is a9o kjo qjo 55 a6s q9s j9s t9s.
what s is yours??