Hand Quiz! Street by Street, With a Fun Decision. FT 100

[epdaws]

Full Tilt NL 100, 6-max, 6-handed

Reads: Villain, in 500 hands, seems solid. He's 24/17/4 and we generally stay out of each other's way.

Hero has $102, and Villain covers.

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Villain is UTG and raises to $4, one caller on whom we have no reads, SB folds, Hero...? Call, fold, raise, and why.

For the purpose of this hand, we'll get to the flop. Hero calls.

Flop: ($12) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero... Lead or check? What's the plan?

Moving on, Hero checks, Villain bets $9, one fold, Hero calls.

Turn: ($30) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero...? We've picked up a draw to go with our TP. Are we leading? Are we check/calling? Check/raising? Other?

Hero leads for $22, Villain shoves, and it's $66 more to call.

[oyvindgee]

fold pf. If villain is decent it will be hard to get any value when you're good and you'll find yourself in this spot the majority of the time.

c/c flop because we get info about the other guy and we avoid being bluff raised as might have happened if we lead. Obv fold to major action.

I think leading here is okay as it looks pretty strong and villain wont two barrel that card anyway. Fold to the raise. You're hardly ever good and have like 10-12 outs on average.

[ReptileHouse]

Pre-flop: Fold. I despise playing dominated hands out of position, especially against decent players.

Flop: Check. UTG could easilly push us off the best hand with a raise if we donk into him. We can't realistically call a raise here, but we're not in bad shape against UTG range. If UTG bets and the other guy calls, I like a fold. Against two opponents, I like this hand even less. If he folds, I'll call but not like it much.

Turn: This one is tougher. Since the board paired in addition to giving us the draw, there's always the possibility that our flush outs aren't good. Likewise, if villain bets twice, how clean are our two pair outs since a T would no longer catch up to AA? With a villain this aggro, I probably c/c.

Against {qq+,22,AK,AsQs,AsTs,KQ,QsJs,JsTs,9s8s}, we have 29.77% equity. It's 66 to call into a 118 pot, so if that's a reasonable range, we're not getting the odds to call and should fold. It's not far off, though, so if his range is wider than that, it could be a call. I don't realistically think villain has a range too much wider than that here, though unless he likes to double barrel wet boards a lot.

The whole hand is a great example of why I hate playing KTs out of position. We're getting sucked into a big pot with a marginal hand, plus we're having a hard time figuring out if we're ahead.

[Check_The_Nuts]

ep - super easy to put you on a draw here.

You don't have KQ cuz thats the [censored] weirdest line ever. Lead when board pairs? humm sketchy. I'd also think u'd donk/check raise some of the time on flop with a hand that big.

Definitely don't have AK, so maybe KJ at best, but there's two flush draws out, so if I'm villian I'd figure u for either a pair that picked up a draw, or KJ maybe trying to squeek thin value.

[wrkingtobegreat]

Here's how you should play each street:

preflop: Fold. K10s is pretty weak, but it might be worth calling for a minraise...but not one of 4x the big blind.

flop: bet 9. We hit top pair, but we have a weak kicker and need to see where we are at. Betting here is for value and to define our opponent's hands more clearly for us.

turn: check, with the intention of check raising big. By checcking and showing weakness, we encourage bluffs that will be folded to a checkraise. Furthermore, we do not at all mind if our opponent checks behind because we are getting a free card to draw to our flush.

As played on the turn, we need to fold this. We bet out on two streets and got raised, so our top pair is probably no good. Are we getting pot odds to draw to the flush? Absolutely not. Our pot odds at this point are 1.8-1...no where close to what we need, and like I said, our top pair is no good. Not only this, but in the small range of hands villain isn't currently beating us with is Adxd, making this an even worse call.

[Pokey]

Wow....as the villain of this hand I can honestly say that I'm surprised by some of the advice in this thread.

oyvindgee said:
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c/c flop because we get info about the other guy and we avoid being bluff raised as might have happened if we lead.


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What information could hero possibly get about me from check/calling this flop? After hero checks in this pot, I'm usually firing a bet with any two cards. Check/calling tells us nothing. Betting gets called by every hand that beats hero and folds most hands that are beaten by him (assuming hero is a decent player). Check/raising breaks off a bluff if I have air, but again gets called by all hands that beat us and folds out all hands that we beat. Check/calling seems appropriate, but NOT to gain information; it's because we're barely ahead of villain's range and we should be calling to maximize our value in the hand, since we're really not afraid of any turn cards (other than a possible ace).

Check_The_Nuts said:
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super easy to put you on a draw here.


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Actually, it looks more like a hand that is AFRAID. A draw would typically try to price itself in with a smaller bet or check, hoping to have a smallish bet to call. Making a sizeable bet opens you up to a raise that you can't answer, and that would make it look LESS like a draw. As it turns out, hero had a combo-draw, and this was more of a "value bluff" than anything else. Considering that the 2 almost certainly didn't improve villain OR hero, it looks more like a value bet or a defensive bet trying to charge a draw. I would typically put hero on some flavor of made hand in this situation, not a draw.

wrkingtobegreat said:
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flop: bet 9. We hit top pair, but we have a weak kicker and need to see where we are at. Betting here is for value and to define our opponent's hands more clearly for us.


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As I mentioned above, betting here only helps us to see "where we are at" when we're ahead and villain folds. Mind you, with a weak hand facing a nearly infinite number of scare cards, I actually don't mind betting to fold out weaker hands in this situation: you win a small pot with a small hand and you move on to a better situation. If villain is good enough to float in this situation, the bet looks much uglier, and leads to even worse problems on later streets where even more money is on the line and even bigger FTOP mistakes can happen. This is not a pot we really want to build -- a lead here is for protection, not for value. Now, considering the size of the pot and the strength of our hand, I don't much mind a protection bet with the intent of scooping it up, so long as we'd occasionally do the same thing with 22 or with JT or with A6 -- we've got to mix it up for this to be a smart play.

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in the small range of hands villain isn't currently beating us with is Adxd, making this an even worse call.


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Actually, if we add A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to villain's range, our call gets BETTER, not worse: after all, that would put villain on a 10-out draw (seven unseen diamonds and three unseen aces). If we think a semibluff is a significant part of villain's range we should be more likely to want to call, not less likely.

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All told, I think this is a very hard hand to play for hero, and I think everybody hit the nail on the head for how to deal with it: fold preflop. Playing weak hands OOP against a raise only opens you up to making all sorts of very costly mistakes on later streets.

P.S.: Lest you think epdaws is an idiot, let me clear the air and say that while epdaws was at the table, he was NOT hero in this hand. He observed the hand and thought it was quite interesting from hero's perspective (after the preflop mistake), so he asked me if he could post the hand.

[wrkingtobegreat]

good post pokey, yeah I think the gist of this hand is to fold k10s oop to a raise preflop

[2Paul2]

I can't imagine folding pf getting 3.5-1 w/ gd relative position on pfr.

c/c flop is pretty standard.

I hate leading turn because better hands never fold, there's vry few worse that call and getting shoved on sucks.

I'd check turn again and depending on how much he bets and what reads I have could see fold/call/shove all being options.

Paul

[Speedlimits]

c/c turn is standard.

[0evg0]

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c/c turn is standard. and so is preflop and flop.

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