The Free Market and Punishment

[Vagos]

Recently was discussing the free market and specifically violent crimes with a friend of mine. He asked about my position on the death penalty.

The death penalty has always been a tricky one for me. Even when I was a minarchist libertarian, I was still fairly supportive of the death penalty. I have heard Ron Paul mention he supports the death penalty. For me, it was about proper punishment for taking another human life and sticking someone in jail just didn't cut it for me.

I basically told my friend that while I don't condone the state executing an individual, I find it hard to believe the same punishment would not be exercised in a society living in market anarchy. I am fairly sure prisons would not be desired in a free market, as the communities would be so decentralized, that people simply wouldn't want to stick violent offenders in a facility in their towns (that they had to pay for). On the other hand, I fail to see how murderers, serial killers and rapists would simply be exiled from the community. The people would just cry out for a more severe punishment I think. I think there might be a lot of vigilente justice, but keep in mind, I'm only referring to the very worst crimes.

Thoughts?

[NickMPK]

In reality, there would probably be a lot of vigilante justice for lesser crimes as well.

Here's a question I have about punishment in AC society:

Who does a private defense association have the moral right to punish?

If I murder someone who is NOT a member of a private defense association, does an unaffiliated PDA have any right to punish me because they don't want me out on the streets free to murder again? Or do they only have the right to act against someone who has violated the rights of a member of their association?

[mosdef]

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Who does a private defense association have the moral right to punish?

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I don't think the Justice Corp would have the right to punish anyone directly, unless the "criminal" signed a contract agreeing to accept punishment as decided by Justice Corp.

[Vagos]

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In reality, there would probably be a lot of vigilante justice for lesser crimes as well.


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Such as? What crimes and what kind of vigilante justice would they produce?

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Who does a private defense association have the moral right to punish?

If I murder someone who is NOT a member of a private defense association, does an unaffiliated PDA have any right to punish me because they don't want me out on the streets free to murder again? Or do they only have the right to act against someone who has violated the rights of a member of their association?

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My guess is yes. I would think social norms that determine murder is very bad and serious crime would cause unaffiliated groups to seek justice against you, at the request of a large portio of the community, most likely. My advice; don't murder people.

[Vagos]

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Who does a private defense association have the moral right to punish?

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I don't think the Justice Corp would have the right to punish anyone directly, unless the "criminal" signed a contract agreeing to accept punishment as decided by Justice Corp.

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Clearly in a society where everything derives from self-ownership, someone who takes another life will be dealt with. They have opened and initiated a violent transaction of the worst kind. Whether they signed a contract saying they won't murder people or not is, IMO, irrelevant.

[tolbiny]

Man do I just want to link a "the ethics of liberty" here. its in podcast form on mises.org.

To sum up the basic principle as it applies here- punishment and deterrence should not be cornerstones of a justice system. True justice is an attempt at restitution to the victims.

[NickMPK]

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My guess is yes. I would think social norms that determine murder is very bad and serious crime would cause unaffiliated groups to seek justice against you, at the request of a large portio of the community, most likely. My advice; don't murder people.

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How is justice based on the request of a "large portion of the community" any different than coercion imposed upon the minority by a democracy?

[NickMPK]

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Man do I just want to link a "the ethics of liberty" here. its in podcast form on mises.org.

To sum up the basic principle as it applies here- punishment and deterrence should not be cornerstones of a justice system. True justice is an attempt at restitution to the victims.

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But if you only punish to the extent of restitution then all crime become +EV for the criminal if there is any possibility he won't get caught, right?

[Vagos]

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My guess is yes. I would think social norms that determine murder is very bad and serious crime would cause unaffiliated groups to seek justice against you, at the request of a large portio of the community, most likely. My advice; don't murder people.

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How is justice based on the request of a "large portion of the community" any different than coercion imposed upon the minority by a democracy?

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The idea that murder is bad is a social norm based on man's reason and his desire to interact with others in the same manner he expects in return. This is why 99.9% of people believe that murder is bad.

Surely you can see the difference between this and majority rule? If you're a utilitarian who doesn't believe in ethics or morals, then there is no need to hijack this debate into that realm.

[Vagos]

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Man do I just want to link a "the ethics of liberty" here. its in podcast form on mises.org.

To sum up the basic principle as it applies here- punishment and deterrence should not be cornerstones of a justice system. True justice is an attempt at restitution to the victims.

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But if you only punish to the extent of restitution then all crime become +EV for the criminal if there is any possibility he won't get caught, right?

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Yea, see this is the problem I have. I believe that sometimes restitution and punishment can be one in the same. If someone brutally murders your family member, most people want swift punishment as a way to compensate for their loss.