NL10: QQ got re-raised by tight player

[BotOnTilt]

Hello sirs, this is my first thread.

Villains stats: VPIP 26, pf raise 5, tot AF 0.8
I had played very tight at the table, with a VPIP of about 10.

I always feel lost when I have a hand like JJ/QQ or AK/AQ and someone re-raises me. Especially when the villain is somewhat tight. I would very much like to learn some good strategies for these spots, but so far I don't remember learning about them in the books I've read.

Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($8.43)
Hero ($20.72)
CO ($11.23)
Button ($1.58)
SB ($6.60)
BB ($7.29)
UTG ($5.29)
UTG+1 ($9.50)
MP1 ($18.57)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $0.10, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.7</font>, CO calls $0.70, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $2.45</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls $1.80, CO folds.

Flop: ($5.95) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB bets $7.19 (All-In), Hero?


Did I play right pre-flop, and should I call the all-in? Any comments on why a certain action is right would be much appreciated.

Thank you for your time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[mack848]

If these stats accurately describe his play, then the preflop 3bet is nearly always AA, KK or AK. AK is his most likely hand, but does he push with this with an AF of 0.8? Let's say he does push with AK 1/3 the time. This means he can have AA 6 ways, KK 6 ways and AK ~5 ways. You are ahead 5/17 of the time, getting nearly 2:1, making this a fold - especially since AK has 6 outs twice to outdraw QQ. If he pushes AK half the time, it's close to a call. Tough one and I don't think a call can be a big mistake; if it's a mistake at all.

[Bianculli]

Knowing when to lay down a hand like QQ preflop in this situation is not as simple as reading pt stats for villain. You have to think about his perception of your raise and his current state of mind (is he running good/steaming/have a bone to pick with someone in the pot/etc.). Also, what hands has he shown when he cold calls a pfr? How often has he 3-bet? What actions are normally taken by the other players in the hand when facing a 3-bet like this (for instance is one of the limpers a person that always sees a flop once they put money in)?

There are several players in this pot and he reraised you after you raised two limpers with 4 players left to act. If you are not frequently raising yourself, he has to give you credit for a pretty good hand.

He also raised an amount that commits him to playing this hand no matter what the flop brings, but he did not go all in. It is an amount that would leave him up against a very good hand if it is called, but he does not mind seeing the flop.

These are all signs of a very big hand.

I don't like your preflop call. If based on all the info, you feel QQ is good against his range, you should push. If not, you should fold. He bet an amount that doesn't make sense for you to call hoping to a flop a set and then fold if you don't.

As played, I think you have to call. You called the preflop reraise thinking your queens might be good and knowing he is probably pushing any flop. The flop is favorable for your queens. If you are going to fold this flop, you definitely should not have seen the flop.

[myheadhurts]

[ QUOTE ]
Hello sirs, this is my first thread.

Villains stats: VPIP 26, pf raise 5, tot AF 0.8
I had played very tight at the table, with a VPIP of about 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the board.

As a friendly piece of advice, when quoting opponents stats try to let us know how many hands this is over.

This is very important in this hand - against a complete unknown at NL10, this is a call - unknowns do this with top pair, any over pair and probably missed overs quite often.

The stats for this guy however say he is very very passive, and hence unlikely to do this with a lesser hand. So you should fold.

The question then is how relevent are the stats? Aggression, in particular, is a stat that requires a good number of hands to be relief upon. If you only have 50 hands, then he's only played 13 flops, and probably folded a lot of them. Hence he could easily be an aggressive player when he has a hand - he just hasn't had anything yet.

Once we get to 150-200 hands, we can be more comfortable that the stat is relevent, and lay the hand down.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hello sirs, this is my first thread.

Villains stats: VPIP 26, pf raise 5, tot AF 0.8
I had played very tight at the table, with a VPIP of about 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to the board.

As a friendly piece of advice, when quoting opponents stats try to let us know how many hands this is over.

This is very important in this hand - against a complete unknown at NL10, this is a call - unknowns do this with top pair, any over pair and probably missed overs quite often.

The stats for this guy however say he is very very passive, and hence unlikely to do this with a lesser hand. So you should fold.

The question then is how relevent are the stats? Aggression, in particular, is a stat that requires a good number of hands to be relief upon. If you only have 50 hands, then he's only played 13 flops, and probably folded a lot of them. Hence he could easily be an aggressive player when he has a hand - he just hasn't had anything yet.

Once we get to 150-200 hands, we can be more comfortable that the stat is relevent, and lay the hand down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. I would like to add to this and say to make sure you get some real reads on your opponents. Stats can help, but they are not nearly as helpful as a real read.

[Bianculli]

[quoteThe stats for this guy however say he is very very passive, and hence unlikely to do this with a lesser hand. So you should fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this as a blanket statement. He is typically passive post flop, but how often does he 3-bet 35% of his stack preflop? A player that does that is almost always going to push or checkraise the rest of their stack on any flop. He decided to make a stand or a move or whatever with this hand. I don't think you can use the postflop AF in this scenario. The focus should be on what hands would he make this stand with under these conditions, but if that hand is 6-5, he is still pushing it postflop after putting that much in preflop. Basically, I am saying the read in this case is all preflop. I would not be re-evaluating postflop based on his low AF. His decision to be aggressive with this hand was made preflop and he will follow through no matter what (based on his stack size).

[BotOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]

As a friendly piece of advice, when quoting opponents stats try to let us know how many hands this is over.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for the welcome [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm eagerly reading all your replies, and have already gotten much more excellent advice than I expected. I also have some of my own thoughts about the hand, and about your replies but I'll add them a bit later as not to bias anyones opinion.

Good point about the amount of hands, didn't think about it. I think the stats were for about 50 hands at the time this hand was played.

[BotOnTilt]

Seems like there will be no more replies so I'd like to thank you all for your input, I especially value the fact that you took the time to write logical explanations instead of one liners. I felt like I learned a lot about how more experienced players go through these situations.

I thought a lot about this hand since these situations happen so often to me, I haven't folded QQ preflop yet but in spots like this I guess I should learn to let it go.

Have to agree with mack848 that the hands that raise are usually AK, KK+. I always assume they could do it with jacks when I play queens, but even if it was a part of their range I'm not sure calling is profitable since there are so many opportunities where I can get my money in good in NL10 and in these spots with a low flop I never know if I'm ahead until showdown and then it has cost me a ton.

Bianculli speaks words of wisdom IMO when saying that the villain was committed with his pre flop raise and a push was to be expected and that the decisions should have been made preflop. I wish I would have thought about that back then. Also true that as played, folding on that flop would be bad since then I would only have called for set value. I do think AK could push that flop, since I didn't 3-bet he would probably assume that I don't have KK+ and that I might fold a similar hand as his. At least it seems unlikely that he would check/fold his AK after raising for 1/3 of his stack.

threads13, I was actually reviewing the villains hands in Poker Tracker before I posted this hand thinking if I should have noticed something about his plays which would have made me fold preflop. I noticed that in early position he had limped with jacks, and that his only reraise was with AKs. When this session was played I was very unfocused and didn't pay as much attention to the game as I should. With those reads I guess could at least be sure that I wasn't up against jacks.

I'll have to re-evaluate how I play QQ when reraised.

[Specialwon]

Hi, welcome to the board. JJ and QQ are tough hands to play when there's clearly someone else out there with a big hand, hence you need all the information you can get your hands on to help you make a good decision.

I'd just add that there's a standard raising formula that nearly everyone on the board uses pre-flop which is 4 big bets + 1 big bet for each limper ahead of you. Here that would be 0.60. You were pretty close, so just for info.

[BotOnTilt]

Thanks Specialwon [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I read a few threads about the 4+1x rule, and it seems to work. But I usually prefer to make my bets a bit larger - they still get called and hopefully I can limit the field more.

From a later position I might raise less and earlier I'll raise more due to the fact that I'll gladly take the pot down if OOP.