ruling for an exposed card

[grebe]

Played last night with a new group...pretty loose game with a whole bunch of gamblers and no card players...the following happened:

I was SB, and BB cards were left by BB in front of me. I am shuffling the red deck while blue deck is in play...these are Bicycles that are fairly warped by now. I riffle the deck and one of the BB's cards flips over...wtf? Play is already halfway around the table now.

Solution: They gave him the top card off the stub and used exposed 6:clubs: as burn.

Correct solution?: He shoulda protected his hand...and even though I was the cause of the flipped card, he should have to play his hand with the cards he was dealt. Is this the correct solution???

Thoughts?

[sirfoldalot]

The BB was responsible for protecting his hand. At my event I would have declared his cards dead.

[KampfHase]

Here's an excerpt from Robert's Rules of Poker (Version 10) that suggests exactly what you've done.

"Hold'em Rules
1. If the initial holecard dealt is exposed, a misdeal results. The dealer will retrieve the card, reshuffle, and recut the cards. If any other holecard is exposed due to a dealer error, the deal continues. The exposed card may not be kept. After completing the hand, the dealer replaces the card with the top card on the deck, and the exposed card is then used for the burncard. If more than one holecard is exposed, this is a misdeal and there must be a redeal."

However, since I don't really get the situation due to your wierd descriptions, you might also want to consider this:

"MISDEALS

1. Once action begins, a misdeal cannot be called. The deal will be played, and no money will be returned to any player whose hand is fouled. In button game, action is considered to occur when two players after the blind have acted on their hands. In stud games, action is considered to occur when two players after the forced bet have acted on their hands.

2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.

(a) The first or second card of the hand has been dealt faceup or exposed through dealer error.

(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer."

I don't know what you mean by "cards [...] left by big blind in front of me", and you were in the small blind? I'm confused...

[grebe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what you mean by "cards [...] left by big blind in front of me", and you were in the small blind? I'm confused...

[/ QUOTE ]

well, remember this is a loose home game, and I was definitely an outsider in this game. The cards were dealt out from the end of the table, and the BB had yet to move his cards towards him....thus they were in front of me and out towards the middle slightly. I had pulled my cards next to my stack and laid a chip on them, then started to shuffle the next deck waiting for action to come around. Riffle....flip goes the card. I apologized, then the "dealer" gave him top card and took the exposed card back.

To clarify: If it were MY home game or one of the normal games i play in, I would want to ensure the "correct" ruling was made. In THIS game, the correct thing to do was to keep my hole shut and not be a nit (which I did). I just thought it would be an interesting post, and I wanted to be sure I was right in my thinking.

[PantsOnFire]

In the game you describe and most other home games, I think that it's just fine to give him the burn card. It doesn't affect the action so there is no unfairness involved. It's the same as accidentally exposing the burn card. BB still has two random cards.

[KampfHase]

Robert says:
"You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it."

So, the guy failed to protect his hand (here: failed to gather his cards in front of him). You weren't the dealer, so no misdeal really but a foul.
I think the card should play and not be replaced. (It's not dead either, I would state.)

Agreed?

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
You weren't the dealer, so no misdeal really but a foul.
I think the card should play and not be replaced. (It's not dead either, I would state.)

Agreed?

[/ QUOTE ]
While technically you are correct, in a normal poker game, the guy to your right isn't shuffling a deck of cards during a hand. Who knows how squished these players were at the table. And as well, at a home game maybe BB was helping the host with something and was turned around.

At my home games we will fix something as long as it doesn't screw somebody else who did nothing wrong. So tell me who is being screwed by replacing BB's card?

[sirfoldalot]

[ QUOTE ]
I was SB, and BB cards were left by BB in front of me. I am shuffling the red deck while blue deck is in play...these are Bicycles that are fairly warped by now. I riffle the deck and one of the BB's cards flips over...wtf? Play is already halfway around the table now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since action had already occured the misdeal rules don't apply. Also, using the exposed card as a burn after there is action is not correct. Someone may have wanted to change their action after seeing that exposed card.

I feel the only solution here is to declare the hand dead. You can try to make a less terse decision in a friendly game but that is hard to do when action already occured.

[Lottery Larry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was SB, and BB cards were left by BB in front of me. I am shuffling the red deck while blue deck is in play...these are Bicycles that are fairly warped by now. I riffle the deck and one of the BB's cards flips over...wtf? Play is already halfway around the table now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since action had already occured the misdeal rules don't apply. Also, using the exposed card as a burn after there is action is not correct. Someone may have wanted to change their action after seeing that exposed card.

I feel the only solution here is to declare the hand dead. You can try to make a less terse decision in a friendly game but that is hard to do when action already occured.

[/ QUOTE ]

One, remember that the action is preflop, before the BB acted. Two, though the BB should have protected his hand, it wasn't HIS actions that caused the card to flip. It was OP's shuffling.

I'm okay with the original ruling for a home game, with a warning to BB about protecting his hand. I wouldn't want that to become a practice, however.

I could also see ruling:

a) BB can play with that exposed card, on their choice (fold, or play with the 6 that was exposed)

b) If BB's hand is ruled dead, SB's hand is also dead (for killing the BB hand)

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
Since action had already occured the misdeal rules don't apply. Also, using the exposed card as a burn after there is action is not correct. Someone may have wanted to change their action after seeing that exposed card.

I feel the only solution here is to declare the hand dead. You can try to make a less terse decision in a friendly game but that is hard to do when action already occured.

[/ QUOTE ]
You make a good point about the action and how somebody with pocket sixes would have like to have known if one of his set makers was burned before he decided to play this hand.

However, I don't see the difference between using that exposed 6 as the burn card and giving BB a new card and just killing BB's hand. What is the difference?

And really, picture yourself at home game, you turn around to show somebody where the bathroom is or whatever and when you turn back, your hand is killed because somebody else fouled it. And to boot, you have to donate a BB into an unraised pot with no hand.

Come on guys, is this really how you would rule at your own home game?