Help me with theoretical thinking

[UtzChips]

I am 3 off the Button with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and open/raise.
It's folded to the BB who calls with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB choses to go for the ck/raise.

I decide, that because:
1. I have OESD with BDFD, so I am going to bet it for value.
2. I open/raised and BB ck'd, I may be able to p/u the Pot right here.
3. If I can't p/u the Pot here, I may be able to get it on the Turn if a K falls and BB checks, which would be a pretty good indication he doesn't like the A/K on Board.
4. I open/raised PF, so my continuation bet on the Flop would be a rep of having an ace.

All decent reasons that I can think of for betting my hand on the Flop, when the BB checks. So I do.

The BB check/raises and I call.

My question: Am I paying 2 bets on the Flop to draw to my Straight, or am I paying only 1?

I would think I'm paying 1 bet to draw to my hand because the bet I made was for the reasons I've stated. Just because BB's ck/raise is a pretty good indicator that I am may very well be behind, I did not know that when I made my bet on the Flop, therefore, there was value in the bet that had nothing to do with my draw.

Is my logic wrong?

[Blue Lagoon]

I would say that, based on the Fundamental Theorem of Poker, you pay 2 bets to draw, not one. If you knew your opponents cards, you would have check. So it's a mistake.

But, obviously you should c-bet and it's not a mistake to bet, because you don't know your opponents cards.

I think you ask this question because you know your opponents cards, so it's biased. We cannot say, I pay 2 bets to draw, since we don't know if we are ahead or not (he could have 76s).

It's just my thought, I don't really know how we should answer your question.

[Gonso]

Mistakes in the theoretical/FTP sense are not necessarily a bad play in the practical sense, which looks to be the case here.

You are paying two bets on the flop, being somewhat behind, although that's marginalized a little by the fact that villian put additional money into the pot as well. However, the bet and call were each made in relation to different pots. You are paying more putting $ in to call, but that pot is also worth more now (this is still disadvantageous to you, as the proportion of the pot relative to your investment has reduced).

I suspect you're asking if you can artifically create a correct calling situation, after the first error and that's a yes. Although you can't really make the first mistake correct, that's over with. If you've priced yourself in or have the implied odds to call the reraise, then you can make a correct call and avoid a second mistake.

Every betting scenario is a whole new problem, even if later action on the same street.

[UtzChips]

I thank both of you. The way I was looking at it:
I raised PF and BB could be calling with most anything, including 87s. My bet on the Flop, after he checks, then has value, because if a K comes and I keep betting, despite not making my hand, he may muck his on the River unimproved.

Just because I "made a mistake" by betting and getting ck/raised, if Villains range is wide enough, he will not have an ace the majority of the time, therefore, making it my standard play here to check behind is a mistake the majority of time.

[AaronBrown]

I look at this differently. I'm not thinking that I'm drawing to a straight, I'm thinking that I have an excellent chance to bluff almost any hand out of the pot; and in the unlikely event that I fail, I can't have worse than 28% pot equity. So in limit poker, I reraise.

Worst case, he's holding AA. That's not likely with the preflop call. In that case, he reraises again. I've still got the equity to call if I miss the turn (especially if I get a club), so I'm not in terrible shape. There are a few other hands, like A-high, A9, A8, 99, 88 or 98, that BB will probably call but not raise; or maybe he will raise. Regardless, I'm still not in terrible shape.

With almost anything else, BB should fold. I could easily have A-high, even AA. I could have a set. If BB calls with A7, and calls raises on the turn and river, then I'll make my money back on other hands.

[d3gener4te]

yep