JJ in BB vs. UTG raise

[Eaglebauer]

Can't find my hand history. 5/10 FT. UTG raiser is about 34/25. All fold to me in BB and I just call for 'deception'. If there was another coldcaller or a raise I would've reraised or capped.

Flop is K84 rainbow.

(So my problem is, as I'm running bad lately and second-guessing everying -- when overcards come, wtf do you do? Is the prferred line pretty much always to 3bet this out of BB and take control and make easier to play? If you 3bet and then get raised on this flop, is it an insta-fold then? I've been seeing some pretty friggin crazy pure bluff flop play lately and don't like laying down ANY made hands like JJ to these kinds of opponents)

I check-called flop

Turn is a Queen, and I resigned myself to check-calling to SD and not liking it.

Poor line? Or semi-standard if you just call preflop?

[jstill]

id never just call preflop here so i duno, I think if u ck call the turn u should ck fold the river tho as played, worse PPs wont vb and all his other utg opening hands have u beat except like AT A9 and those wont 3barrel this board enough to calldown profitably since they have showdown value and wont expect u to drop a pair

[imitation]

everything about this hand and your thinking is pretty awful, i think you know that but, i don't think you need advice on this hand in particular.

[Eaglebauer]

[ QUOTE ]
everything about this hand and your thinking is pretty awful, i think you know that but, i don't think you need advice on this hand in particular.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you be more specific? I realize the JJ BB call and the calldown are questionable? Anything else in my posted 'reasoning' you're referring to?

edit: I realize the 3bet out of the BB is pretty standard, but I didn't think just calling was necessarily unaceptable. I just don't like 3betting out of BB and gettinng insta-raised on flop with an overcard and feeling like I have to fold what is probably still the best hand.

Running bad may be affecting my thinking though.

[imitation]

I think your mistake is in this " I just don't like 3betting out of BB and gettinng insta-raised on flop with an overcard and feeling like I have to fold what is probably still the best hand." . SD poker is really efficient, I am thinking about maximising the ammount of money I can get in the pot when I should have the best hand, when I'm unsure I'm thinking about how I can get the most bets out of a worst hand and minimising the ammount I lose to a better hand. The balance when you're unsure is working out how much should I be happy to put in the pot with this hand all the way to the river and SD.

[jstill]

fwiw if I 3bet this and villain raised the flop on K84 rainbow and esp with a fd Id calldown.

Ur screwed from a FTOP standpoint since being OOP means ur going to be forced to put more bets in behind (2.5) than ahead (1.5 IMO). But this flop raise is far too often FOS where u ll be ahead often enough to make up for this difference, and they ll fire 3 barrels occasionally (more likely on a less dry board tho).

If he checks the turn behind I bet the river.

If you play with the guy awhile and realize hes only raising this flop with top pair once uve shown strength preflop and doing it everytime he hits TP, I guess we could insta fold. Many players dont raise TP on the flop vs a preflop 3bettor even out of the sb let alone the bb. Not sure if they should or not with KJ or KTs here? I guess that depends on their opponents 3betting range and what actions they ll likely to take with each holding, how often they fire the turn with A hi or worse PPs and calldown ect. This is probably a spot where for villain a mixed strategy would be optimal, but weighted towards just calling Id say, but is easily opponent dependent.

[TheWunderkind]

[ QUOTE ]
FTOP

[/ QUOTE ]means what?

[Eaglebauer]

Thanks for the feedback.

Just to clarify - when I was talking about 3betting preflop and getting insta-raised and "feeling" like I have to fold the best hand, I actually usually don't fold there either. I am a SD monkey more and more with hands like these, and I guess my feeling was, if I'm going to check-call down, why give villian a hint where I'm at preflop so he can play properly post-flop.

I realize it sucks when the overcards come, but when they don't it's great.

Of course I'm not arguing for this as the preferred line.

[jstill]

fundamental theory of poker

fwiw i feel fine with one overcard falling and just showing down vs most of the overaggros in six max hold em games, whne 2 fall i feel [censored] and just bet fold vs most unless their flop raise vs a pf3bettor out of the blinds is nearly always FOS

[emKay]

It's Fundamental Theorem of Poker (from Theory of Poker).

And eagle, the point is that more than 50% you'll flop an overpair and when you don't he is not gonna raise the flop 100% of the time. What I wanna say, no don't be afraid and value 3-bet this pf. You are dominating a big part of his range.