Pot control vs. Protection: I'm still confused

[Barrin6]

I'm still very confuse on these situations. Someone with brains please tell me what is the flaw in my logic here.

Hand 1
I say don't bet here because you don't have to protect your hand against that many cards to come and with the ace present there you should get a cheap showdown.

Hand 2
Hero has J7 and has no showdown value thus, I want a bet to win the pot straight up. This will get hands like underpairs and random junk that may catch on later streets to fold.


Hero here is MP with 86s diamonds.
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $1,434.10
BB: $807.10
UTG: $600.00
MP: $819.60
CO: $312.00
BTN: $687.25

Preflop: is dealt (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $21.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $21.00, 2 folds

Flop: ($51) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP bets $36.00</font>, BTN calls $36.00
Hero is CO with J7s no backdoor flush draw.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $3/$6 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $489.20
BB: $753.90
UTG: $953.60
MP: $657.60
CO: $781.00
BTN: $597.00

Preflop: is dealt (6 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $21.00</font>, BTN calls $21.00, SB folds, BB calls $15.00

Flop: ($66) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
BB checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Thanks

[spino1i]

Edit: I retract what i said about hand #1, but still: bet, then check/raise might work well here

Plan should be, if flush draw shows up, bet again. If no flush draw check/fold and check/raise are both options. If you hit two pair/trips, bet again.

Hand #2: standard. You can't bet because both a flush draw and an A will raise you (so you cant bluff out flush draws then) and you'll get called by a myriad of other things. Plus 2 other people in hand.

[orange]

hand 1 is a pretty easy b/f I think. I dont really mind turning your hand into a bluff for the most part. Its much too vulnerable to c/c with 86 on this board. you might be able to fold better as well. i would much prefer c/c-ing against an aggro on a T82r board or something.

hand 2- yeah checking is fine, maybe 1/2 potting might be okay as well.

[dd323]

I think you are really overestimating your showdown value in hand 1. If you had QJ or KQ its a totally different story. You only have a pair of 8s and you have no idea about villians range, other than their preflop range. Regardless of what falls on the turn and river, if villian bets are you really going to call on the turn or river? If you bet after that will it be for value? All you are doing is asking to get bluffed off the best hand if it is best, or putting yourself into a situation where a call of almost any bet would be a mistake against a reasonably agressive opponent. It is much better to represent the A here, and have some chance of getting 99 and TT to fold, and maybe even a Q (but unlikely). Besides all this, you don't like any card higher than an 8, which is literally half the deck.

Besides this, even if you did have KQ here, you should vary betting and checking the flop, as many regulars will put you on exactly what you have and bluff/value bet any ace appropriately..

[yanfu]

Neither hand has anything to do w/ pot control or protection.

Hand 1 You raise pre-flop hoping to pick up the blinds or buy the button. You get called by the button and make standard continuation bet. The button calls on a scary board for your hand w/ no draws. You should be done w/ the hand at this point, unless you improve or have a strong read on button.

Hand 2 is very similar to hand 1. You raise hoping to pick up the blinds. You should continuation bet this flop because since you raised pre-flop, this flop is likely to have hit you. This is a scary flop for someone not holding an Ace.

[wpr101]

Neither of these hands has to do with pot control. I think you may have the term confused. The way I interpret it is if you have hand like AJ on a J98 board but you don't bet a certain street to keep the pot small.