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#1
06-20-2007, 08:04 PM
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Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
is it ever correct? If so, under what circumstances? I always fold or open raise from late position because I figure, with any playable hand, I would rather be heads up then have precisely 2 opponents. Also, there’s that slim chance I might steal the blinds. Is my thinking correct?
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#2
06-20-2007, 09:25 PM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
Yes, your thinking is correct, mathematically anyway.
But I open limp frequently on the button because many of my opponents are so bad that my EV postflop is greater than getting value out of my good hands PF or the 1.5SB's I'd be picking up. Off the button, I'd be more inclined to raise just to make sure I have position.
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#3
06-20-2007, 09:48 PM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, your thinking is correct, mathematically anyway. But I open limp frequently on the button because many of my opponents are so bad that my EV postflop is greater than getting value out of my good hands PF or the 1.5SB's I'd be picking up. Off the button, I'd be more inclined to raise just to make sure I have position. [/ QUOTE ] Templar, If it is folded to you on the button and the blinds are players that will go too far with poor holdings, what range of hands would you limp with? What range of hands if any, would you raise with?
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#4
06-21-2007, 12:36 AM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
Yukon,
By no means is this a definitive thing, but more a matter of style or preference. And depending on the opponent (aggressive v. passive, more high hands than low hands, etc.), I would sometimes raise with hands that I've listed here as those I'm more inclined to call with, and vice-versa. So please take it with a grain of salt. And I'm only listing the marginal to the above average hands. With very good hands, or monsters, it wont matter what you do if your opponents are bad. If your opponents are somewhat unknown, then it's probably best to just raise and get value for it. Calling hands: A289r 2346s A5KJ, suited to the king QJT9ds A358, suited to the ace KK35 Raising hands: AAxx AKJT AQQx AKKx 3456ds AWxx. I'd be trying to fold out the 23 or some A3 hands if I had A4 or A5. most suited aces, throwing out the worst ones like A889. Hope that helps as a somewhat decent guideline.
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#5
06-21-2007, 01:41 AM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
[ QUOTE ]
I always fold or open raise from late position because I figure, with any playable hand, I would rather be heads up then have precisely 2 opponents. [/ QUOTE ]Yukon CPA – Different people are comfortable with different things. On that basis, I can understand having a preference for almost anything, including preferring to play a hand against only one opponent rather than against two opponents. But the way you act has a different effect on different individuals, influencing some more than others. Raising in late position may not be a very effective way to assure heads-up rather than three way. Or it may be effective. Impossible for me to say from here. Off the top of my head, I would not think that by raising you would necessarily end up heads-up or that by limping you would necessarily end up three-way, but if it works that way for you and if that’s what you prefer, then go for it. (In general, I would not prefer it, and in general it would not work for me). [ QUOTE ] is it ever correct? If so, under what circumstances? [/ QUOTE ]Seems to me, off the top of my head that an occasional pre-flop raise from late position is almost mandatory, if only to mix up your game. However, does it get you one opponent rather than two? The notion seems almost absurd to me. Raising does tend to decrease the number of opponents who will see the flop. But you might end up with any number of opponents whether you raise or not. I guess it depends on how your various opponents play and on how your pre-flop raises are perceived. [ QUOTE ] I always fold or open raise from late position because I figure, with any playable hand, I would rather be heads up then have precisely 2 opponents. [/ QUOTE ]I think it is a mistake to always fold or raise from late position. I think there are lots of hands where you should rather have more than fewer contributors. [ QUOTE ] Also, there’s that slim chance I might steal the blinds. Is my thinking correct? [/ QUOTE ]Is your thinking about stealing the blinds correct? It is next to impossible to steal the blinds in any ring games in which I play (but sometimes it works in a tournament). However, why not try it for yourself and see how well it works for you. Buzz
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#6
06-21-2007, 01:41 AM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, your thinking is correct, mathematically anyway. [/ QUOTE ]Templar – I assume you mean it is mathematically correct for Yukon CPA to raise or fold from late position. rather than limp. Is there some mathematical basis for this statement? If so, what is the mathematical basis? Buzz
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#8
06-21-2007, 09:34 AM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
Buzz,
By "mathematically correct," I simply meant that the EV of any hand on the button against two random hands in the blinds is less than +1.5SB's in the event of a successful steal preflop.
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#9
06-21-2007, 01:04 PM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yes, your thinking is correct, mathematically anyway. [/ QUOTE ]Templar – I assume you mean it is mathematically correct for Yukon CPA to raise or fold from late position. rather than limp. Is there some mathematical basis for this statement? If so, what is the mathematical basis? Buzz [/ QUOTE ] He should not have said mathematically, but logically I it clearly optimal to raise-or-fold when opening from a late postion in any flop game. If your opponents are extreme in some dimension (probably looseness) you might have a higher EV limping a certain subset of your opening hands than raising them. But if we are assuming generically solid opponents the combination of fold equity, buying the button, increased likelihood of winning the pot postflop due to position, and increased postflop bluff equity due to representing a stronger hand preflop than you actually have make raise-or-fold clearly correct. I think TxRedMan's comment about playing the same whether opening from early or late positions is simply not true. To take an extreme case I think A234 rainbow is clearly an open-limp UTG and an open-raise on the button.
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#10
06-21-2007, 02:54 PM
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Re: Limit o8 - open limping from late position,
[ QUOTE ]
I think TxRedMan's comment about playing the same whether opening from early or late positions is simply not true. To take an extreme case I think A234 rainbow is clearly an open-limp UTG and an open-raise on the button [/ QUOTE ] I raise A234 UTG in a full ring game, limp it in a 6 max game, and I also open raise it from the CO or the Button in either game. So to that extent, I agree with you, but as you can see, my standards haven't adjusted for what hands to open in late position.
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