Super standard push, but why are we pushing?

Fonkey123 · #1 06-20-2007, 12:28 AM

Villain is kanoa_style. 24/20 laggy regular with decent aggression numbers. Essentially owns my eternal soul, and ALWAYS makes the right moves against me. Avatar makes it glaringly obvious he/she is 2p2. Also interestingly enough, while aggressive, is aggressive in the right spots.

Now onto the hand. Yes,yes I know everyone who responds to this is probably going to say (push...standard) or (push... sorry he had a flush/set/top 2 and held) or whatever, but talking with 3 people over AIM I was just wondering why it was so standard? At the time, and I still vehemently feel this way, is pushing is sooooooooo dirty, and just felt meh.

Reflecting on the hand for a bit, I'm wondering about instead of pushing flop, calling the flop, and pushing ALL (as in every single) turn. Why you ask? Well any made hand that check/raising this flop, assuming a reasonable villain which this is, KT/KQ with Qd/ 55/ flush is not going to fold to a push, and every single bluff i.e. 56s or whatever is going to fold to a push. In this specific example his/her range is SUPER polarized into either group a. made hands check/raising for value that are calling a push or b. air that's check/raising as a bluff, and folding to a push. I doubt there's ever a scenario, kanoa check raising a marginal hand for pure value, then folds to a push.

Against made hands, based off gorilla math I'll pstove it later, I'd estimate our range in the low 40 percents. Obviously a shove here gets none of those to fold, and thus we just gamboooooool. If he was bluffing he just folds and we win what's in the pot. My thought is that by calling the check/raise, it's been my experience, and especially this villain, he'll continue to bet the turn 85%+ of the time. By calling the flop and pushing every turn; we give bluffs another chance to fire, or if a diamond hits he may turn his strong made hand i.e. set into a bluff. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but pushing just felt so dirty, and I'm really trying to maximize EV any way possible. Also the argument for pushing flop against made hands is that I'm only 33% against his made hand range.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($191)
BB ($325.15)
UTG ($69.70)
MP ($99.35)
CO ($50.35)
Hero ($235.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($17) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $14, BB raises to $56,

tubasteve · #2 06-20-2007, 12:36 AM

what are you asking

i would push

BustoPro · #3 06-20-2007, 12:43 AM

I, for one, do not think it is a super-standard push at all vs. a thinking player. As you analyzed, you are in a really crappy spot vs. a made hand.

These spots are where it is critical to "play poker" meaning you consider every single variable.

For example, backing up a bit, why are you betting the flop at all? For "value", when, if you are check/raised, you now "have" to make a thin push? And you have the A of diamonds so what is he chasing with?

Now, I might bet this flop, I might not. It depends.

I might push over the c/r, I might not. It depends.

I might call and bet any turn. Sounds like a good line, actually.

What I am saying is there is no easy answer for this type of hand vs. a quality opponent, and your analysis, already getting detailed, only scratches the surface here.

Fonkey123 · #4 06-20-2007, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what are you asking

i would push

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking why pushing here is better than calling the flop check/raise and pushing ANY and all turns. Maybe I should've clarified; I kind of jumbled my thoughts. The only metagame aspect I could think of is if I ever push here as a stone bluff; which I may be super spewy I'd be super hesitant to do.

Bustopro,

My thinking when I bet the flop bet went something like this, and I'll do my best to type it out verbatim "ZOMG OMG I HAVE TEH NUT FLUSH DRAW WITH A PURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR ZOMG BET BET BET BET HYACAHAHCHACHCAHAH!" Yeah Not kidding I was on auto-pilot.

Kermit · #5 06-20-2007, 12:48 AM

hmmm. i dont think this is a standard push.

i fold

JNash · #6 06-20-2007, 01:07 AM

One consideration in favor of pushing is that if another diamond comes you are likely to lose your market

BustoPro · #7 06-20-2007, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One consideration in favor of pushing is that if another diamond comes you are likely to lose your market

[/ QUOTE ]

1.) You are a clear dog vs. his calling range so losing your market should not be your concern here.

2.) In any case, I think you can get a little something more out of him usually.

jk3a · #8 06-20-2007, 01:15 AM

We push here because we have FE and a draw to the nuts that won't get paid off if we just call and hit.

Kermit · #9 06-20-2007, 01:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We push here because we have FE and a draw to the nuts that won't get paid off if we just call and hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes not folding here after c/ring this flop.

edit unless he just decided to do it with air thsi time

Fonkey123 · #10 06-20-2007, 01:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We push here because we have FE and a draw to the nuts that won't get paid off if we just call and hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but 1. we are a dog to his calling range 2. anything he check/raises for value he isn't folding 3. almost the entire portion of out fold equity is made up of pushing over his bluffs, whose range we absolutely murder

*edit* kermit got to it before me, yeah he's not folding anything besides air

*edit 2* to the poster below me, I hightly doubt he check raises anything marginal for pure value that folds to a push on this board i.e. KQ/KJ no diamonds (and that's about all the marginal hands there are on this board)