Extracting Value, HU PLO

[sc000t]

Ok, villian here is new to me. Said in chat he plays 6max regularly. Also said he "feels theres no EV for us to play HU", so IMO hes a pretty competent PLO player. If anyone talks to me about their expected value, I tend to give them a little more respect...at least until i can get a more solid read. So right here I flop the nuts and face action on the flop, not a TON of scare cards can kill my action on the turn, but some certainly could.


PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($191.30)
Hero ($107.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Button calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $3</font>, Button calls $2.

Flop: ($6) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $17.7</font>, Hero calls $13.70.

Plan here is to flat call the raise, and c/r a ton of turns. If he pots the turn after I check, a it will be a smig over a min raise for me to go allin.

Likes, dislikes?

[donkeykong2]

i d probably just reraise here to get it all in oop vs a possible set or qtxx. what do you think his range is here on the flop? if he has air a lot flat calling is probably a good idea, because flat calling oop looks pretty weak and he might fire another bullet.
all in all i m not really a fan of it because i think there are quite a few cards that would slow him down or even help him on the turn and you are oop.

[jbird]

I think you have a better chance of getting it all in if you lead the turn.

Lead turn, call push -- or lead turn push river. He's unlikely to fold unless his flop raise was pure air -- and if this is the case he's not putting another penny in the pot anyway.

[Nitilism]

Likes, especially with some aggressive history which involves floating.

[Kala1928]

So what do you think he thinks you have after you just call the flop? He is not going to pot the turn unless he has KK with some sort of redraws and even then he is not going to pot it every time. Just either repot it or make it like 40-50$ to go and hope some of your redraws hit.

[certifiable]

a competent hu player would check behind on the turn after u call his raise with the majority of his range in order to play a smaller pot on the river...if you don't 3 bet this flop your giving up value by not leading turn. The c.r line is fine if villian is really aggro. and your confident he will fire the turn.

[Nitilism]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you think he thinks you have after you just call the flop? He is not going to pot the turn unless he has KK with some sort of redraws and even then he is not going to pot it every time. Just either repot it or make it like 40-50$ to go and hope some of your redraws hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's a good line too. These few word responses of mine made without a lot of thought get me in trouble.

[sc000t]

You guys do realize that this is HEADS UP. Not 6max, Not Full Ring, but one on one. You guys are approaching this hand a little to nitty imo. We've been raising on our buttons like 92% of the time and there is a ton of betting with less than amazing hands...again its HU you simply can't wait for solid hands like you can in 6max +. At least not vs very aggressive opponents.

There certainly is reason for 3betting the flop, calling flop/leading turn and my line as well.

Saying he checks behind on a blank turn with anything less than KKK+gut shot is rediculous imo. Essentially for this hand, my line allows him to represent MY HAND (nut straight), which makes his betting turn range much wider as I look very weak and able to be pushed off my hand. Wouldn't you agree?


I'm going to class, be back in a few hours. I expect a full report when I get back. I've typed up my reasoning and am very curious to see why others would rather 3bet or call lead blank flops.

[jbird]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys do realize that this is HEADS UP. Not 6max, Not Full Ring, but one on one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Yes I do.

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially for this hand, my line allows him to represent MY HAND (nut straight), which makes his betting turn range much wider as I look very weak and able to be pushed off my hand. Wouldn't you agree?


[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't agree. When you flat call his flop raise on a rainbow straight board, you look pretty f'ing strong, even HU.

So Villain can basically have air, a chop, a set, or a good HU hand that you have crushed (two pair, lower wrap, etc.). If he has air, you aren't getting another penny from him after you call his flop raise (unless he's just a crazy spewmonkey). If he has the shared nuts, its a moot point. If he has a good HU hand that you have crushed, I think most villains will check behind a checked turn to try to get to a cheaper showdown with a hand that has showdown value. If he has a set he may lead turn when checked to and unimproved, but I can see a good opponent checking behind here also because it would really suck to get CRAI in that spot.

So, I still think that even in an aggro HU match, villian checks behind turn here A LOT, and either calling flop and leading turn or 3-betting flop are both better options than checking turn, if your goal is to get villains stack.

[ QUOTE ]
I expect a full report when I get back. I've typed up my reasoning and am very curious to see why others would rather 3bet or call lead blank flops.


[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasoning was basically, it's an aggro HU match so he has to bet turn, right?

[piiop]

i'd just reraise the flop. you're not deep, you have the nuts plus redraws and you're an aggro spaz