wtf, Villain donk-shoves turn.

Phresh · #1 06-18-2007, 11:21 PM

Villain is 14/10, a regular, and a winner in the game. He's gotten out of line before in the past, but playing solid this session.

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Button ($394)
SB ($246.10)
BB ($420)
UTG ($916.70)
UTG+1 ($483)
MP1 ($378)
MP2 ($400)
MP3 ($525.05)
Hero ($446.25)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $16, 3 folds, Hero raises to $44, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $28.

Flop: ($94) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $70, UTG+1 calls $70.

Turn: ($234) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $369 (All-In), Hero ??
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He waited a while before each decision. What's Hero's move and what does he have? Thanks.

jrbick · #2 06-19-2007, 12:14 AM

I'd fold now. Guessing KK-AA. I don't play full ring regularly but is he raising <77 UTG+1?

Also is preflop standard or is calling a reasonable option?

Phresh · #3 06-19-2007, 01:19 AM

Isn't KK pretty unlikely since I already have 2 of them? Also, a 14/10 is probably raising 77+ from UTG. This Villain doesn't really limp too often. Flat calling with AKo is also fine, but I prefer to reraise it more often than not, although I do both.

jrbick · #4 06-19-2007, 02:59 AM

yah actually i take KK back but more because I doubt he'd play it this way.

Prolly wouldn't play AA this way either. I guess call and expect 77 or total crap here. The thing w/ this bet is that it's a terrible value bet if that's his intention here.

Bill Ivey · #5 06-19-2007, 03:22 AM

Did you mean to raise that small preflop?

I would fold... I think he has 55 or 66 here because of your small preflop raise, he may feel enticed to call a small pair for set value.

Phresh · #6 06-19-2007, 03:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Prolly wouldn't play AA this way either. I guess call and expect 77 or total crap here. The thing w/ this bet is that it's a terrible value bet if that's his intention here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're calling his shove with AK here, how is it a terrible value bet?

[ QUOTE ]
Did you mean to raise that small preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is my standard PFR. What do you make it? $55?

zio_slim · #7 06-19-2007, 04:06 AM

looks really like a scared AA or 444 played by a weak player... I fold this to a 14/10 without specific reads on his donk-shoves.

Borsig · #8 06-19-2007, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
looks really like a scared AA or 444 played by a weak player... I fold this to a 14/10 without specific reads on his donk-shoves.

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This is never 444. 55,66,AK and AA is more likly, i think you can fold turn as played. BTW, i normally raise to like 46-48$ but i don't play FR.

jrbick · #9 06-19-2007, 11:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Prolly wouldn't play AA this way either. I guess call and expect 77 or total crap here. The thing w/ this bet is that it's a terrible value bet if that's his intention here.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we're calling his shove with AK here, how is it a terrible value bet?.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you mean to raise that small preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is my standard PFR. What do you make it? $55?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the thinking goes something like this:

He has to know that you know that a donk overbet shove is almost always something weak and designed to fold your TT+ out. He has to know that good read on him and a hand that is strong enough to call. It's such a rare instance that it won't work out for him this way often enough. It's not the best play if he's looking for value here. This is true unless he has reason to think otherwise v. you.

Like i said i don't normally play full ring. I was mostly just trying to give your thread some life [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

To the others: the thing I have trouble with buying that he has a scared AA or set is that the only hand he's really worried about us having is 77. And how often is 77 going to 3bet an UTG raise?

If he's a thinking player he has us on what? AK, JJ+, maybe 99 or TT some of the time? If he's ever looking for value here it's usually only coming when we have something like AA.

EDIT: the implication is that there are easier ways for him to extract value from those hands.

Phresh · #10 06-19-2007, 06:14 PM

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If he's a thinking player he has us on what? AK, JJ+, maybe 99 or TT some of the time? If he's ever looking for value here it's usually only coming when we have something like AA.

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If you're calling with AA, you should be calling with AK.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: the implication is that there are easier ways for him to extract value from those hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

How? Anyway, I was Villain in the hand and just reversed everything to see if people knew what I had. Some mixed responses. Anyway, I had 55 and stacked AK. I think the preflop action and my postflop line are pretty weird and will make AA/AK stack off with more frequency than any other line. I can't let this turn get checked through and I think he checks behind on the turn almost always. What exactly do I call a RR w/ and check-call that flop with? Not much. It looks like I'm trying to rep 87, and since I obviously never have 87, it might entice a call.

:-/